 |
Lost Video Island
A Multifandom Vidding site
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
rbexter93
Expert Vidder
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 3270
|
 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| cylune wrote: | | KiraMarie wrote: | | and to me it seems ridiculous that so many people love him when he is the way he is. |
I'm going to take a break from LVI because I'm sick of being called stupid/ridiculous/insane because I like Charlie. |
*sticks hand up* I like Charlie. This episode sorta reminded me why I do.
He's one of the few beach people I can stick
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Izzy94
Advanced Vidder
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 485
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Pretty good ep IMO. Jack's obviously settled in  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mistojen
Advanced Vidder
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 1699
Location: Corning, NY
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cylune wrote: | | KiraMarie wrote: | | and to me it seems ridiculous that so many people love him when he is the way he is. |
I'm going to take a break from LVI because I'm sick of being called stupid/ridiculous/insane because I like Charlie. |
that makes two of us.
_________________
avatar: Plastic!Winchester Theater by anteka @ LJ; icon by me
sig by AlcoholicPixie |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hobbes
Council Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 11208
Location: Vancouver, BC
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I'm going to take a break from LVI because I'm sick of being called stupid/ridiculous/insane because I like Charlie. |
*sigh*
You know, all I wanted when I said I don't understand why people like Charlie was that "I don't understand - convince me". All I (and I think, the others) wanted was a talk about Charlie. One side plays their part, the other side plays theirs: Results come somewhere in between, but meanwhile everyone re-thinks their take on the subject. That's how it works.
And in that sense, after this discussion I like Charlie a hell of a lot more than if we hadn't had it. Cinthia's last big post and Jen's posts (dude, I said they didn't "answer my question" - as in entirely, but they were still really helpful) convinced me to rethink my position on Charlie. Now I for one can understand a bit more why you like him. It's still a little strange that there are so many casual fans who like him as much as they do, but now I respect you two (and other) dedicated fans a lot more, because you like him for good reasons, not just because he's the freaking hobbit. And you two handled yourselves well in explaining why you like him.
But leaving because of this? That's a little unfair. The only reason why people like myself and KC (and KiraMarie, who I really hope nobody is crucifying for being the straw that broke the camel's back) even started any of this is because we thought that people could put their feelings on hold and discuss. And it happens for every character  hell, I just got off a huge rant about why Locke is being portrayed idiotically this last season. But it's never meant to be personal, and this time was no exception.
Which brings me to this:
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I'm going to take a break from LVI because I'm sick of being called stupid/ridiculous/insane because I like Charlie. |
|
Okay, I know for one thing that when I said I didn't get why people like Charlie, I meant I really didn't understand. Ignorance. As in "tell me why". There was obviously something there that you dedicated Charlie fans "got" that we didn't - maybe because we've disliked him for so long we don't even really think about him any more.
I think all of those comments were mainly meant for the usual people who like Charlie so much - the "OMG DOM!" people who mostly just indulge in his hobbitness . They're the reason he's still so popular, and the ones we're so baffled by  . But the ones who like him for more than that, the dedicated fans, yourselves - to you, this is just a challenge to convince us... Okay, that sounds like a crappy job lol... but uh.... okay, let me explain this in a different sense:
Cinthia, when I think about the fact that you're a Charlie-fan, my reaction isn't "ug, what's wrong with her?". Know why? Because I know you aren't some casual fan. You've put up with all these writers have thrown at you throughout Lost and still kept liking Charlie, despite the rest of us giving up. You have a reason deep-down for why you still like Charlie.
So when I think about you being a Charlie-fan, my reaction is "Woah. What's she know about him I don't? Maybe I need to think about him a bit more."
But regardless of what the intentions were... obviously I was a big part in this whole thing that has now caused you and Jen really hurt feelings, and for that I am deeply sorry  . I really hope that you can forgive me, and anyone else who has made you feel bad with this all, and choose not to leave just because of this... but I can understand if you still feel that way...
I think Lost is a spectacular show by the fact that it even allows us to have these sorts of conversations. People care about the characters this much that we get our feelings hurt just by people disliking them. Compare that to any other show, like Heroes or Prison Break - and I doubt you would find anything close to this level of dedication. And even though these things result in stuff like this, I can't help but feel that if we were to stop, we wouldn't enjoy Lost nearly as much. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mistojen
Advanced Vidder
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 1699
Location: Corning, NY
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
...by taking a break from LVI, I actually meant from the episode discussions, to be specific, because every time I come into one, I end up in a debate in which either I'm made to felt like an idiot or I unintentionally make someone else feel like an idiot and I don't like it when EITHER of those things happen.
It isn't about you asking us why we do like Charlie, it's about feeling ridiculed for liking him by responses to our defense of him. It's not about you, or KC, or KiraMarie (for example) individually, it's much, much bigger. Everywhere there is Charlie hate and that's fine. Everyone can have their opinions. It's when you (not YOU, but...in a general form  ) make a Charlie fan feel like they're not as good a Lost fan or they're clearly missing something (making them feel ridiculous) simply because you (again, general) don't like him. It's hurful when someone is made to feel less intelligent for their opinions.
Most of all, this is a thread about the episode and somehow it became cylune and mistojen vs. the world to defend Charlie's character. It's not even a Charlie episode. In any case, strong opinions will always butt heads and feelings will always be hurt. That's how the world works. I just don't think I want to be part of it in an online community when I have to deal with it in my every day life, already. So, this is not me saying I hate LVI or you, or KC, or Kira, or anyone. I'm just going to save myself some unnecessary grief by staying away from discussions. It's not the end of the world, and I'm not mad at anyone, personally, just the situation. Truthfully, I imagine I can speak for cylune as well, but I apologize if I'm wrong...this wasn't about Charlie at all. The hurt feelings come from feeling ridiculed for our feelings about the character.
Lastly, I'm glad that our views shed some light on you Warren and if you appreciate Charlie even a fraction more than you did before, then we did our job. The only problem is...it isn't our job, at all. *sigh*
In any case, people will calm down. We always do.
And as for Kira...I'm not going to crucify you for being the straw that broke the camel's back, but, I do wish that you could've found a way to reword that so it didn't look so hurtful to cylune and myself. That said, I'm going to head off for the night.
In light of everything else:
Much love to you all. 
_________________
avatar: Plastic!Winchester Theater by anteka @ LJ; icon by me
sig by AlcoholicPixie |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mistojen
Advanced Vidder
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 1699
Location: Corning, NY
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
oh, and
| KiraMarie wrote: | | And if you didnt mean that, then my question is: is it out of character for him to love? Because that just seems ridiculous to me. |
What I meant was that it was out of character for him to say it. Feeling it is one thing. The Sawyer I knew would never have said it. Not those words. In a beat-around-the-bush kind of way, I'd buy. Just not the actual "I love you." Definitely not out of character for him to love but I wish you'd reworded that a little so it didn't sound so biting... 
_________________
avatar: Plastic!Winchester Theater by anteka @ LJ; icon by me
sig by AlcoholicPixie |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
IntoTheVoid
Expert Vidder
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 2407
Location: Narnia
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
Can I come out now?
Just like to say.. I kinda went off Charlie in S2 but I liked him in this ep. And Cinthia & Jen, I love you! *HUGSSSSSSSSSS* Dont be sad Discussions often turn into arguments, thats the problem with them sometimes. But I woulda thought that that wouldn't happen on LVI but i've seen it happen a few times this season already. I blame the writers.
_________________
"Jack is the guy she should be with.
She does genuinely love him.
And she knows that he would take excellent care of her." - Damon Lindelof |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperKC
Expert Vidder
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 3667
Location: On a Stick
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I blame the writers. |
Elle, you slay me.
Do you really think this turned into an argument? It felt more like a discussion/debate to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Polarbear
Expert Vidder
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 13684
Location: having a bowl of brown with Davos
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Can't we all just be BFF?
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LOSTOnAnIsland
Intermediate Vidder
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1539
Location: LOSTOnAnIsland
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Polarbear wrote: | | Can't we all just be BFF? |
hehe Absolutley!  Charlie too! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
IntoTheVoid
Expert Vidder
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 2407
Location: Narnia
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SuperKC wrote: | | Do you really think this turned into an argument? It felt more like a discussion/debate to me. |
Debate is just a fancy word for argument
_________________
"Jack is the guy she should be with.
She does genuinely love him.
And she knows that he would take excellent care of her." - Damon Lindelof |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KiraMarie
Novice Vidder
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 200
Location: Mid US or the Island??
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I apologize everyone! I don't exactly have a talent for being nice. lol. My words tend to come out biting. I really apologize, I didnt mean any of what I said to take offense. As for my saying I found liking Charlie to be ridiculous, it wasnt an attack, far from it. I was more saying it the way Hobbes said it. I don't get it, not that it makes you a second class citizen for seeing the good in Charlie, I just don't see it and in my mind it always amazes me that people do like him because it's unfathomable to my mind. I didnt mean to seem like I was calling anyone ridiculous. Sorry!
And I get the Sawyer thing now too. This is the problem with having conversations on paper instead of by word of mouth. You lose a lot of people's meaning.
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/10thkingdomfanatic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hollywood
Expert Vidder
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 3478
Location: Ontario
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Polarbear wrote: | | Can't we all just be BFF? |
I'm still your BBF right Pauly? See . . . I even put the heart back under my sig and everything.
lol wow, why am I not surprised about the Charlie war going down in this thread? Again.
Cinth, just so you know I still love Charlie too and I probably always will. He's been one of my favs since the show first started and if he dies I'm gonna be major pissed!!! 
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cylune
Expert Vidder
Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 2715
Location: Québec, Canada (icon by imaginary lives)
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hobbes wrote: | | You know, all I wanted when I said I don't understand why people like Charlie was that "I don't understand - convince me". All I (and I think, the others) wanted was a talk about Charlie. One side plays their part, the other side plays theirs: Results come somewhere in between, but meanwhile everyone re-thinks their take on the subject. That's how it works. |
Thing is Warren, I don't have to convince you that Charlie is worth liking because what makes him worthy in my eyes might not be worthy in yours. I think people have to accept that there are different types of people out there that are attracted to different types of personalities. I can see why people would hate Charlie and I'm not going to demand an explanation of why they don't like him because I respect their opinion. I just wish my opinion on this board could be respected without having to justify why I like Charlie. I know it's not what you meant, but it's what it sounds like.
Again, my reason for liking Charlie might not be endearing to you. For example, I like that he's not the strong alpha male type. I've always rooted for the underdog and I've always been more of a sidekick person. My favorite character in Harry Potter books is Ron. I've always like the funny/sarcastic/underdog type of character. It might not be traits that are appealing to you personally but they are to me. Charlie's immaturity and childlike-ness? I know it drives some people nuts with hate but to me it's cute and endearing.
I think there's a strange thing happening in the fandom where it seems like it's the 'in' thing to hate Charlie. It's contagious... And it's driving away the Charlie fans away from the boards. I mean, you really got to be a dedicated fan to put out with the constant crap we get by liking him. And like jen said, it's not only here at LVI, it's widespread across the fandom. When I see Charlie being crucified for not going along with Claire's plan knowing it was going to kill him, it's just disturbing to me. Also people were questioning why Charlie was even allowed to go have fun with Hurley, Jin and Sawyer during TTiD. Charlie's treated as a second class citizen on the boards and his fans are too. I've seen to many times people belittle our opinions because we’re Charlie fans, therefore our opinion is less worthy. We are considered second-class Lost fans.
| Hobbes wrote: | | But leaving because of this? That's a little unfair. The only reason why people like myself and KC (and KiraMarie, who I really hope nobody is crucifying for being the straw that broke the camel's back) even started any of this is because we thought that people could put their feelings on hold and discuss. |
I'm glad because you're the first person ever to say that I changed their mind a little with regards to Charlie. You might be interested in a reasonable debate and willing to listen but I have a strong suspicion that you're the only one. When I see posts stating that 'Charlie is mean to everyone all the time' I don't think it's a reasonable discussion. How can you even justify such a statement?? I cannot have a reasonable debate with people that think Charlie is the devil re-incarnated every time he doesn't act like a Mary-Sue. And like Jen stated, it's like a very few of us against the world. I don't have to put up with this, especially when I'm being considered stupid and ridiculous for my character preferences. I have the real-life stress of family and work, if on top of that I have to bang my head on my desk participating in Lost discussions - you know, discussion I'm supposed to enjoy because it's a hobby, then it's not worth it. So I don't think it's unfair of me to be leaving because I really don't find it fun anymore.
| mistojen wrote: | | I just don't think I want to be part of it in an online community when I have to deal with it in my every day life, already. So, this is not me saying I hate LVI or you, or KC, or Kira, or anyone. I'm just going to save myself some unnecessary grief by staying away from discussions. It's not the end of the world, and I'm not mad at anyone, personally, just the situation. Truthfully, I imagine I can speak for cylune as well, but I apologize if I'm wrong...this wasn't about Charlie at all. The hurt feelings come from feeling ridiculed for our feelings about the character. |
That is exactly how I feel jen. Thank you so much for spelling it out.
And now time for a personal request... please stop bashing characters or ship.
There's a distinction between character bashing and reasonable criticism. I, myself, don't see the attraction in Daire. Bashing that ship would be:
"Are Daire shippers watching the same show as me? Those who think it might happen are delusional and morons. It's ridiculous to think that Desmond would leave his one true love for the first cute blond he encounters,"
Something I'd prefer reading:
"I don't like the possibility of a Daire pairing. I think that if Desmond shows an interest in Claire, it would undermine the whole epic love story the writers have created with Penny. Also, it would make Desmond look bad considering that Penny is still looking for him after all these years. And it would make Claire seems a little flaky since she just committed to stand by her Charlie."
See the difference here? In the first statement, I'm not only criticizing the Daire pairing, I'm also attacking the Daire shippers and insulting them. It hurts people's feelings. Second example might not be pleasant for Daire shippers to read but I don't think I'm hurting anyone's feelings. Bashing characters or ship is not good and I wish it weren't encouraged here.
| Hobbes wrote: | | It's still a little strange that there are so many casual fans who like him as much as they do |
And I find a little strange that you have a hard time understanding why so many 'casual' fans like him. But since you asked nicely and you seem to actually read and seriously ponder on what I’m saying, I’ll tell you why I like Charlie and hope it’s not just a waste of my time.
He's easy to identify with
He represents the everyday man with flaws and character traits a lot of people have. He is extremely easy to identify with him. His eagerness to please people, his insecurities, his low self-esteem, his vulnerability... those are flaws but I just want to give him a big hug because I suffer from the same problems. These character traits might be disturbing to many because they show weakness but they are endearing to me because I can identify with them.
His commitment to taking care of the people he loves.
It was shown pretty clearly in the Month when he was ready to give up a life of fame and fortune to save his brother from the life of a rock star. He also was ready to get clean for a girl he liked (Lucy). He learn the manual by heart while going through heavy heroin withdrawals. (Ever tried to study for an exam with the flu? Try it while going through heroin withdrawals, something junkies would be prepared to kill their mom and dad so they wouldn't have to go through) He was very stupid to think he would be able to succeed given his condition. And he ended up stealing the cigarette case and messing the copier sale but he had enough courage to come back and apologize. He just wanted a decent job to prove he could take care of her.
Same with Claire and the baby. I was pregnant during season one and to see someone taking care of the pregnant girl like that made me all fuzzy inside. I wish I had someone like Charlie taking care of me like that during my pregnancy.
Charlie killed Ethan to protect Claire. Because as long as Ethan was alive, without any holding facilities, he was a treat to her. And considering Ethan attacked Charlie the day before, threatening to kill everyone unless he brings Claire to him, acting on his threat and also considering Charlie still had the markings of the hanging on his neck, I can't really blame him for what he did. In fact, it made me like him more. I know a lot of the hate started there.
And I just can admire his determination in getting Aaron back when Danielle took him. Even if it meant having his flesh put on fire. (I know the haters are saying he was only slowing down Sayid.... but that is not undermining his courage)
And in Fire + Water, he was convinced that Aaron was in danger and the only way to save him was to get him baptized. He risked his relationship with Claire and his standing on the group with a plan to do that. It pains me when people say he was trying to drown the baby - he would never hurt Aaron and Claire knew that. It's when she said: 'You're hurting me' that Charlie came to his senses and give the baby back. All he wanted to do was to save the baby. It's not the first time or the last that a Lostie acts irrationally after having weird dreams. Why doesn't Charlie get any breaks?
If you go to the abc official website, here's the last sentence of the Fire+Water recap:
| Quote: | | But maybe there is one more thing he can do -- one last, desperate leap towards salvation.It just might cost Charlie everything.But then isn't that what being a martyr is all about?You get to save everyone but yourself. |
I did not write this... it's on the freaking official abc website. The bad things he did in Fire+Water was for Aaron.
He wants a family to take care of... I a way, I find that extremely attractive.
He's a good person.
I like my favorite characters to have moral ambiguity but to a certain extent. Charlie's a sinner, no doubt in my mind. But the worse thing he did in his life was to drag a woman in the jungle. If you compare his actions to the other losties, he pales in comparison. I mean, Ana, Eko, Sawyer, Kate, Michael are first degree murderers, Sayid tortured women, Jin beat Michael up in from of his kid, Locke hit Sayid over the head and he lead Sayid to believe that Sawyer did it (even gave him a knife that ended up in Sawyer's arm). Locke killed Patchy without a single once of remorse.
Do you see what I mean when I say I don't understand why people say he's all rotten inside with no hope of redemption? His sins are quite minor compared to the others losties. And I can assure you that if we learn in a flashback that he's a cold blooded murderer too - then my appreciation of the character will decrease a lot. I can't have a character with this much moral ambiguity as a favorite. This may be why all the Sawyer love is a little puzzling to me. But then, I understand that some people like their character to be very ambiguous. Just not my cup of tea. I like my favorites to be clearly on the good side. That's why I also like Jack, Claire and Hurley a lot too.
An example of him being a good person is his behavior during the hatch crisis. He was the only voice of reason in there... despite hating him, he warned Locke that Eko was about to blow up the door. He stayed until the last minute to prevent that from happening. He put their differences aside so that nobody would get hurt in the explosion. And after the explosion, he attempted to carry Eko to safety, dodging knifes and forks. (And what people were focusing after the episode? That Charlie was a jerk for not going on a rescue mission for Locke and Eko. Didn't matter that the guy had suffered a major concussion (he stayed unconscious for 30 minutes according to the hatch timer) and was seriously confused, hence his 'They're not back yet?'. If you're going to blame Charlie for not setting up a rescue mission then blame Bernard and the whole camp too.)
(And for those who will say that he's a cold blooded murderer also because of Ethan's killing... I can assure you that under the circumstances, it's not first degree murder, it's voluntary manslaughter. And before a court of law, he would probably get either probation time or nothing at all depending if his lawyer is good or bad. I consider the Sun kidnapping attempt a worse crime.)
Charlie is a good person. Always wants to help and be useful. Helped Eko build the church, helped Sayid building the kitchen (he even finished it in Sayid's absence), is helping Claire with Aaron, help Locke find Eko….I like that about him.
His sense of humor
He bring a lot of humor to the show ... He's got a very sarcastic sense of humor that I love. His: 'Are you going to beat me up with your Jesus stick' / 'Oh, you guys have an inside joke. How absolutely wonderful for the both of you/ You hit like a ponce/I don't know my own bloody blood type / Hairspray? Hate to be the one to have to tell you this but..."/You're not doing drugs, are you? I wouldn't want you to have to start punching yourself.
And the snarkyness I just adore. The way he did the gun psychout to Ana??? Priceless.
Frivolities
I like the accent and I think he's really cute. Love the hair and the little flippies he's got behind the ears. Love how he's all tender and sweet with baby Aaron. (Love a guy with a baby). And I love that he plays the guitar and piano... I have a soft spot for musicians.
_________________
Last edited by cylune on Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:17 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cylune
Expert Vidder
Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 2715
Location: Québec, Canada (icon by imaginary lives)
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
btw, thanks for all the nice words Ashleigh, Paul, Holly, Sheree, Becca and Elle. I really appreciate it. *hugs*
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
