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Rocksiren
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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 Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I agree with everyone- especially thank god on the scary over-possessiveness. I liked the little bit o'Daire we had in there...whoo hoo!
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cylune
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Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 2715
Location: Québec, Canada (icon by imaginary lives)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Hobbes wrote: | | And just to add: does Charlie learn lessons...? I mean, he got in huge trouble from Claire for lying to her before about the drugs, and now he does it again (for what? to protect her? make her feel better..?). |
Is it that so hard to understand why he doesn't want to tell her? First, it sound absolutely ridiculous. The universe is trying to him and using her bird plan to do it. Not sure she'd believe him. Second, maybe he doesn't or doesn't want to believe it. If he says it to Claire, then it makes it more real for him. I think there's a part of him that doesn't want to believe it. And third, I'm sure he doesn't want to worry Claire over this.
I know, all very selfish reasons. What a jerk.
| Quote: | | Selfish is the best word I can think to describe the way he acts towards people. He's been pretty ugly to Hurley as well and had some snarky remarks with a few others as well. Not just Claire. |
Selfish? The guy is ready to do the most amazing sacrifices for the ones he cares about. Snarky remarks? Like in the finale with Locke when he was being snarky over a crying Locke? You're right, I'm expecting a lot better reaction from Charlie, especially since he was being snarky over someone who punched him in the face 3 times and humiliated him in front of the whole camp. So selfish of him. His should give a shoulder over which Locke can cry over.
As for Hurley? I agree he's been a jerk sometimes but in TTID he truly showed how good a friend he can be by going down the hill with him. Charlie put he's life in the hands of Hurley. As for the hurful comments he made to Hurley, that's how I see them:
Numbers - Charlie confesses to Hurley that he's a heroin addict and ask for Hurley his dark secret.
As a viewer, we know that Hurley's money brought him bad luck, that the numbers are cursed. Charlie doesn't know that. So when Hurley reveals that his darkest secret is that he's rich, is it surprising that Charlie's pissed? How does confessing to being rich compares to confessing you're a drug addict - something Charlie worked very hard to hide from everyone. Maybe if Hurley had started by saying he has a curse, then Charlie wouldn't have been so angry.
EHH - Charlie 'bullies' Hurley into giving him peanut butter. For Claire.
Charlie's set of mind during the episode - he's pissed that he's kept out of the loop about what is going on with the hatch and he knows Hurley is keeping it secret. He wants to know what going on and Hurley is lying to him. (I'm not mad at Hurley - he was asked to keep quiet. Not his fault). On top of that, he's carrying a Virgin Mary statue full of heroin around. You know, enough to last a life time without worrying about running out. He must be fighting continually with himself to resist the temptation. His mind is like: Claire. Heroin. Aaron. Heroin. Peanut Butter. Heroin. I'm at the bloody kids table again. Heroin. It's a little understandable that he's cranky. I'm not saying he wasn't a jerk to Hurley. He was a jerk... but it didn't came out of the blue. Giving the circumstances, his crankiness is understandable.
| Quote: | | You say that you like that he helps around the baby but on the flipside, he also gets INCREDIBLY possessive whenever anyone else tries to help Claire with Aaron or even comes around Aaron and/or Claire. And by anyone else, I mean anyone MALE. *cough*locke&desmond*cough* Annoyingly possessive. Not just a furtive glance or something, but all "You're treading on my turf, buster." Buzzah?!?! |
As for Charlie being possessive and jealous... I'll go through all the 'occurrences' and try to see things from his point of view:
EMFH - Desmond offers to fix Claire's roof. Charlie intervenes and tells Desmond he can fix the roof himself.
Weird button pushing guy comes to his girlfriend and offers to fix a roof that is perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with it. What does it look like to Charlie? Desmond is trying to hit on Claire.
I don't know about you girls but imagine this situation: You go to a party and while your boyfriend is hanging with his buddies, a guy comes to you, offers you a drink and start 'hitting' on you. I'd be disappointed if my boyfriend doesn't care enough to come to see what's happening, give me a kiss on my cheek to let the guy know: The lady's with me. Don't hit on her. It sends a clear message and I don't think you can call it being overly jealous or possessive. It just means that your boyfriend cares about you and doesn't want to lose you to another guy.
Remember that Charlie doesn't know how great a guy Desmond is at this point. To him he's this weirdo, locked in a hatch that was pushing a button every 108 minutes for years. And now he's (seemingly) hitting on his girlfriend. Add to that that physically speaking, Claire is not in the same league as Charlie. Claire is stunningly beautiful while Charlie can be considered cute. And Desmond's a hunk. And Claire is pretty flaky about her feeling for Charlie. No wonder Charlie's insecure.
FBYE - Claire comes to thank Desmond for saving her life and Charlie interrupts, saying Aaron is hungry. Charlie gives a weird look to Desmond.
Weird handsome pushing button guy that was hitting on my girlfriend, runs out of nowhere to save my girl from drowning. Who's this guy? How the hell did he know she was drowning? Did he caused this? Why did he pushed me away once Claire woke up? Why didn't he let me carry her to her tent? She's my girlfriend, not his! Will Claire fall for this guy now that he saved her life? Now that she found a better protector, will she dump me again? She looks annoyed with me again. Does Claire even care about me or did she take me back so she could have a handy babysitter
Charlie's jealousy are rooted in his insecurities. He's a former junkie and the girl he loves his surrounded by single hot alpha males. He's scared of losing her. And she represents so much for him. Like his brother got clean and redeemed by having a family, Charlie sees in Claire and Aaron a chance at redemption. He wants to help to be a better person. How selfish is that? What a jerk.
| Quote: | | Jen said that everyone's been nasty to someone when they themselves were feeling bad from time to time and that's true. And perhaps you identify with that more than I do. But Charlie does it ALL THE TIME. That's not forgivable. |
Charlie is certainly not mean to everyone all the time.
| Quote: | | I mean, that's EXACTLY the justification for him conspiring with Sawyer and kidnapping Sun. He wanted to punish Locke (and perhaps the group as a whole) for outcasting him. There's no justification for that. Charlie is NOT A CHILD. He doesn't get to act like that without someone going, "hey... isn't that kind of childish/selfish?" |
ITA. What Charlie's done to Sun has no justification. What he did was pretty much inexcusable and selfish. Totally agre. But if you're going to hate him for that, then you must also hate 3/4 of the characther on Lost. What he did to Sun is pretty much small potatoes compare to the crimes that Kate, Eko, Sayid, Locke, Sawyer, Ana, Michael, Jin all commited. I would put him on par with Sun poisoning Michael so that her Jin would stay. That's pretty selfish. Poisoining is an assault and a very dangerous thing to do without any medical facilities. It made a grown man very sick, could you only imagine if Walt had drank that water. It could have killed him.
| Quote: | | On the OUTSIDE Charlie seems like this really sweet guy who cares about everybody. But the further in you get, the uglier he gets. Which is maybe why people have less sympathy for him than they have for Sawyer. He's more like "nice on the outside, evil on the inside. |
Further? The guy is jealous because he's insecure. The worse thing he did in his life (that we've seen) is drag a woman through the jungle and then let her go.
Charlie all ugly inside?? Charlie is someone who was ready to give up fame and fortune to save his brother from the rock star life style. He was ready to get clean and get a respectable job for a girl he liked. He risk his life to save Jack. He went to save Charlie's baby even though it meant (as it appears) that he was going to confront the same people who kidnap him and left him for dead. He went into the ocean to save Claire even though he doesn't swim. He took care of a pregnant woman when nobody was looking at her in the eyes. There's no doubt in my mind that he would die in a second for both Aaron and Claire. Charlie has a dark side but it's certainly not all ugly inside.
okay, that was long. 
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Hobbes
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 11208
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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...
well, if I'm not convinced, then I'm at least as convinced as I've ever been  . But I would like to hear what KC has to say still  so I'll just be standing over here now...
*bows to victor*
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cylune
Expert Vidder
Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 2715
Location: Québec, Canada (icon by imaginary lives)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Hobbes wrote: | ...
well, if I'm not convinced, then I'm at least as convinced as I've ever been . But I would like to hear what KC has to say still so I'll just be standing over here now...
*bows to victor*
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There won't be. I did this to vent and let go of all my frustrations. I've done a lot of posts to defend Charlie and I had to make myself stop because it doesn't matter how much I tried, I never changed anyone's mind over Charlie. I believe Charlie could sacrifice his life to save the world and the haters would find something wrong with it. He did it to make himself look important!!! What a selfish jerk!!!!!
I told myself I wasn't going to do this again but here it is. Bad me. No cookies.
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SuperKC
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005
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Location: On a Stick
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| cylune wrote: | | Is it that so hard to understand why he doesn't want to tell her? |
I agree that Charlie had every right to keep it from Claire. But at the same time you wonder why he wouldn't confide in her. Why was Desmond the one to tell her?
| Quote: | | Yeah Snarky remarks? Like in the finale with Locke when he was being snarky over a crying Locke? You're right, I'm expecting a lot better reaction from Charlie, especially since he was being snarky over someone who punched him in the face 3 times and humiliated him in front of the whole camp. So selfish of him. |
I don't even recall what instance you're referring to here. But Locke was totally just in punching Charlie. He took the baby (no matter his intent) and the child's mother said for him to get away and he moved in her direction to speak with her, grab her, whatever. Locke was merely protecting her.
| Quote: | | So when Hurley reveals that his darkest secret is that he's rich, is it surprising that Charlie's pissed? |
Yeah actually it was pretty surprising. Has Hurley given Charlie any indication that he would make fun of something so serious as being a drug addict? Hurley's super sensitive, even though he says funny things a lot, they're very rarely at anyone's expense.
Re: The other instances of Charlie being jerky to Hurley & others.
This kind of goes back to what I said before about how sure, we hurt those around us sometimes but it doesn't make it right and if you do it on a consistent basis it becomes less like "one of those things" and more like a GIGANTIC character flaw that can't be excused.
Re: Desmond & Locke and Charlie being possessive: Some women might think it's sweet, but I happen to not. Yeah it sends a clear message that Charlie OWNS Claire  The problem being a few times the couple wasn't even a COUPLE yet when he was acting that way.
In many of the instances Claire didn't even WANT help! He constantly tried to tell her what to do regarding the baby. Keep your voice down Claire, Aaron is sleeping etc. (That is NOT the first time he's pulled a stunt like that.) That is NOT his choice. Coming up to Claire while she's talking with Locke like he did last season and acting like a jealous boyfriend and insisting that HE help with the baby instead of someone else is NOT his choice. He's undermining Claire's judgement, and her right as a WOMAN and a MOTHER to make those desisions on her OWN. And that's pretty much ALL I have to say about that.
| Quote: | | But if you're going to hate him for that, then you must also hate 3/4 of the characther on Lost. |
Circumstance is everything, and most of the folks I felt were a whole hell of a lot more justified in their wrongful actions than Charlie was. I'm not gonna get into everybody's stories, but for example, Ana-Lucia didn't kill the murderer of her unborn child because "her feelings were hurt, oh noes!"
| Quote: | | Charlie has a dark side but it's certainly not all ugly inside. |
Basically what I meant by that is that Charlie seems like a nice guy, but when you scratch the surface, the only person he really cares about is himself. I don't mean to say that he's completely worthless. But I personally wouldn't want a friend like him in my life. I mean, with friends like him who needs enemies, like the old saying goes. |
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Sheree
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Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 457
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cylune
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Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 2715
Location: Québec, Canada (icon by imaginary lives)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Sheree wrote: | Cinthia~ (if you make your way back in here ) what you posted just made my day... thank you!!  |
hey thanks. 
| Quote: | | but when you scratch the surface, the only person he really cares about is himself. |
You can accuse Charlie of being a follower, jealous, possessive, someone that clings to people, annoying, snarky, someone who has no business telling Claire how to be a mother... but to say that the only person he cares about is himself is like saying that Jack doesn't want to fix people. Charlie cares too much and it's part of his problems and character flaws.
But back on the episode... now that Claire has shown that she clearly cares about Charlie, maybe he'll be a little more confident and be less jealous and insecure.
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Sheree
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Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But back on the episode... now that Claire has shown that she clearly cares about Charlie, maybe he'll be a little more confident and be less jealous and insecure. |
I was thinking the same thing... I'm interested to see how this effects their relationship for the better. When she said to him that she is not going to give up on him... I was like "YES!!!"
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KiraMarie
Novice Vidder
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 200
Location: Mid US or the Island??
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, it's been a while since I have written on this thread, so I have a lot to say.
First, Sawyer saying "I love you, too" wasnt out of character if you look at how he said it. This is just great acting by Josh. If you listen to his "I love you" to Cassidy and his "I love you" to Kate you see a very distinct difference. One is very forced and fake, but the other is uncomfortable and genuine. I think Josh was going for a normal tough guy Sawyer in the first one, and the second, because it really meant something, it was shy and awkward. And yet he still had a little joking nature to it in order to make it seem less true than it was. He has never said I love you and meant it, so it is a new experience for him. He has been loved, but hasnt loved, so what may seem out of character is just discomfort. And if you didnt mean that, then my question is: is it out of character for him to love? Because that just seems ridiculous to me.
Also, Hobbes, your last long post about Charlie was word for word exactly how I feel about him. It's not about whether he is redeemable, he is a character in a TV show, I don't have to give him the benefit of the doubt, for me its whether I like watching him or not, and to me it seems ridiculous that so many people love him when he is the way he is. I know that came out more harsh than I meant it, but if I could find a nicer way to say it I would.
That does not mean I'm glad that Desmond predicted his death, or that I want him to die. It is just the way it is. And maybe his end will be the thing that sells him for me.
As for the overpossessive thing, I don't even care if it is his choice or not, I'm more concerned with the fact that he is using her to replace his drugs. And if you look at the flashbacks of the Moth and his statement "Who the hell are you, John? Aaron's not your responsibility. You're not his father, you're not his family!" shows that he honestly has deluded himself into thinking that he is Aaron's dad. Now I know people are going to want to attack that, and before you do hear me out. He wants someone to take care of, and he has always been told that he can't. There is a lot of psychological damage there and though he may not realize it, his issues may be bigger than he wants to admit.
But I am glad that Claire is on his side. He will need that through the rest of the season. Hopefully, Charlie will get some bootie from it. (lol. sorry if that made anyone uncomfortable)
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cylune
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Joined: 12 May 2006
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Location: Québec, Canada (icon by imaginary lives)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| KiraMarie wrote: | | and to me it seems ridiculous that so many people love him when he is the way he is. |
I'm going to take a break from LVI because I'm sick of being called stupid/ridiculous/insane because I like Charlie.
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Rocksiren
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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My beef is how the two of them, C & C, have been forced together. Thats all. I dont think she we should "bash" anyone, I think we should have the same "character debatng moratorium" on this issue as we do on the Locke issue. 
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LOSTOnAnIsland
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Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1539
Location: LOSTOnAnIsland
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| cylune wrote: | | I'm going to take a break from LVI because I'm sick of being called stupid/ridiculous/insane because I like Charlie. |
Please don't Cynthia. I do not think that you are stupid, ridiculous or insane for liking Charlie.
I may not be a Charlie fan but I appriciate that you are and I don't think that anyone thinks that you are stupid for it. They just have strong opposing opinions.
I know a lot of people who do like Charlie. And they'd be proud of the Charlie promoting that you do.
And afterall it is only fair that someone should take Charlie's side!
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SuperKC
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah I'm pretty much the only one I know outside of the internet that DOESN'T like Charlie. My mother HATES it when I get frustrated with his character. |
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Sheree
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Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 457
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm going to take a break from LVI because I'm sick of being called stupid/ridiculous/insane because I like Charlie. |
*hugs* Cynthia... I know how you feel hun... it is just frustrating... why can't those who will never like Charlie just accept that there are those out there that do. Charlie has his faults ... he isn't perfect. But I have seen him do alot great things ... some of which Cinthia mentioned in previous posts.
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Polarbear
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Joined: 26 Jun 2005
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Location: having a bowl of brown with Davos
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: |
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I don't want Charlie to die I understand if people find him annoying but I don't see anything he has done as reasons for him to die. There has been times when I have found Charlie annoying but this is mostly when he mispronounces Aaron the American way That said I find almost all the characters annoying at times even my favourites.
He is also very over protective of Claire but I do think he has something special with her so he has a right to be really. In Par Avion I can't understand if people felt he acted badly. It was Desmond who was causing trouble with Claire. Charlie was just trying to stay away from it. He was hesitant, distant but you really can't blame him he's worried he's gonna die, having that hang over him all the time (in the form of Desmond.) Claire was overeacting and treating Charlie badly if anyone.
Charlie is a great source of humor on the show, he is one of the few British people on the island so I want someone representing on the island His episodes have been on the whole excellent, contary to popular opinion. The Moth and Homecoming anyone? Fire and Water is in my book an okay ep. I think people hated it so much becuase it was one of those filler episodes but I think there was a lot of good stuff in it still in terms of imagery, trippy visions and humor.
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