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HobbitRockGod Expert Vidder
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
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Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, don't get me started, Julia - I love the Starks, okay, but they really treated Theon horribly, I mean, can you imagine growing up in a place where no one really cared if you lived or died? And then he goes home and wants to make his father proud and all his father says is how he's gone soft and he's NOT proud of him - it's just awful!! You can totally see how he arrived at making the choices he did, which are also horrible, but no way does he deserve what Ramsay's done to him! It breaks my heart! _________________
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eloramoon Council Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 9077
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Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, exactly! He grew up never truly belonging anywhere or to anyone, and that must be such an awful feeling. And ugh, Ramsay! _________________
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HobbitRockGod Expert Vidder
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
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Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Ramsay scares me a lot. I literally had a nightmare about him the other night - I think he's legit the scariest thing in the series so far!! _________________
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eloramoon Council Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 9077
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Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:45 am Post subject: |
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AGREED! Easily the scariest person in the whole series. I'm not sure I wouldn't rather come face-to-face with an Other or a wight, because then at least it'll be over fast. o_O _________________
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HobbitRockGod Expert Vidder
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
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Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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LOL, I had the same debate with myself - decided I'd much rather face an Other than Ramsay Bolton. _________________
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Polarbear Expert Vidder
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 13684 Location: having a bowl of brown with Davos
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Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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HobbitRockGod wrote: | Oh, don't get me started, Julia - I love the Starks, okay, but they really treated Theon horribly, I mean, can you imagine growing up in a place where no one really cared if you lived or died? And then he goes home and wants to make his father proud and all his father says is how he's gone soft and he's NOT proud of him - it's just awful!! You can totally see how he arrived at making the choices he did, which are also horrible, but no way does he deserve what Ramsay's done to him! It breaks my heart! |
I think they treated him pretty well to be fair. Ned and Robb did at any rate. It was definetly still hard to grow up there with no true family or ties to anyone. As horrible as the torture was it felt somewhat justified to me for the terrible acts he committed. He still killed two boys even though they weren't Bran and Rickon and he still stormed Winterfell. He also seems to be have been a bit of a mysogynist and very arrogant. I am rooting for Theon now but I wasn't in the past. The torture scenes were a necessary evil to make me feel sorry for him and for him to come out a better man. _________________
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KajaM Expert Vidder
Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 10438 Location: On the run! (With Sandor)
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Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with Paul when it comes to the Starks/Theon: I don't think they have treated him "horribly".
The Starks have never treated him cruelly, they have never hurt him. They provided him with food and a place to live.
I agree that it's not a great way for a kid to grow up... without a real home, a real family, real love, nowhere to belong to, but I blame Balon Greyjoy far more than the Starks. He never gave a damn about his son, never tried to bring him back home and - even worse - when Theon came home by himself, Balon mocked him and insulted him. Balon is the real monster here, not the Starks. _________________
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eloramoon Council Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 9077
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Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:13 am Post subject: |
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I don't think Balon had a choice, though. Theon being raised as Ned's ward was a condition of him being accepted back into the king's peace, so I think the only way he could have gotten Theon back would have been to go to war again, and since his first rebellion went so poorly, I'm guessing he knew that wasn't a viable option.
And, I can't speak for Eryn here, but when I think of how the Starks treated him kind of horribly, I guess what I mean is that they always made it clear to him that he *wasn't* a Stark. I can't think of any examples at the moment, but I think he had memories of that being pointed out to him often by Rob and others. I am not under the impression that Catelyn was particularly loving toward him, despite being the closest thing to a mother he would ever have. So yes, they gave him food, clothing, and education and didn't treat him cruelly, but they never made him feel like part of the family, and seem to have gone out of his way to make sure he remembered he was an outsider. That seems pretty horrible to me.
And I don't forgive Theon for butchering those two boys any more than I forgive Jaime for trying to kill Bran, or The Hound for killing Mycah. But, while it certainly doesn't excuse their actions, I think it does matter that they were all pushed to become "that person" in various ways, and that they all did what they did due to very high stakes. Jaime risked not only bringing down his family with shame if his incestuous relationship with his sister got out, but also her losing her position as queen, and quite likely they both would have been executed (or at least imprisoned) for treason. The Hound was just following orders--and when you take orders from the king, queen, or crown prince, refusing to follow orders could result in physical harm, imprisonment, or even death as punishment. And Theon risked losing his birth right--what was his future as a non-Stark? He could only have been a hanger-on, always present but never with any title or worth. Yet he was the rightful heir of the seastone chair, but his father wanted nothing to do with him. He was in limbo, and he took Winterfell in an attempt to win back his father's pride. I totally get that. He stood to gain far more from that than by being the perpetual errand boy of the King in the North. When things went wrong, he killed those boys because he was desperate to cover up his failed gamble. I get that, too. Awful as it is.
What will matter most is if these men can all redeem themselves. So far so good, I think. Hopefully that will remain the case! _________________
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HobbitRockGod Expert Vidder
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
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Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with EVERYTHING Julia said. Theon was innocent of any wrong when Ned took him away from his family. He didn't deserve to grow up as an outsider - he was only a little boy, and that's something I can't forgive Ned Stark for. Like Julia said, Theon can't be forgiven for killing those two boys, but in his eyes he had no other choice. What he did was awful. But.... Basically what Julia said. He was only desperately trying to regain his father's favor and become MORE than Ned Stark's ward, just some bannerman for Robb who would never be treated with the respect he deserved.
Believe me, I was as upset with Theon in A Clash of Kings as ANYONE was. But at the same time, even though I can't excuse him, I understand why he did it and I feel for him. I think the show (at least what I've seen so far) has done a really good job emphasizing his loneliness and isolation, as well as the pride he has in being a Greyjoy. I think that's a really smart move. _________________
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eloramoon Council Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 9077
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:02 am Post subject: |
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I have been sooooo impressed with how the show has conveyed Theon's feelings and motivation. They have done a killer job! In fact, I think they've done a good job with all the characters in that respect. Normally so much is lost in translation from page to screen, especially when you lose POV thoughts and perspective, but I think (the last couple seasons especially) they have really done a fine job with it. _________________
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Polarbear Expert Vidder
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 13684 Location: having a bowl of brown with Davos
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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I love Theon more than book Theon that's for sure. Alfie is fantastic.
Hey thought I'd share this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hECvAGhMPxM An electronic band I like did a cool cover of the GOT theme tune _________________
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Polarbear Expert Vidder
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 13684 Location: having a bowl of brown with Davos
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Just thought of a crazy theory.. what if Talisa was one of the Sand snakes. That would give the Red Viper even more beef with the Lannisters on the show. _________________
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eloramoon Council Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 9077
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, Paul! Alfie is so great!
LOVE that version of GoT theme. Thanks for sharing that!
OMG... if Talisa was a Sand Snake, that would be SUCH an interesting way to introduce them into the show. Really fascinating thought!
ETA: OMG! I just looked that theory up to see what other people are saying (there are a few hits but not many), and one person suggested that both she AND Shae are Sand Snakes. That would be fascinating! _________________
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Polarbear Expert Vidder
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 13684 Location: having a bowl of brown with Davos
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yeah Shae is a possibility too. That would be awesome. Although I reckon the Dornish will have a Spanish accent so that could mess with the theory with Talisa having an English accent and Shae having a German accent. _________________
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HobbitRockGod Expert Vidder
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't gotten to that part on the show yet, but if Alfie pulls off Theon's transformation as well as everything else regarding Theon has been handled, he's gonna KILL IT, and it's going to be amazing and horrible to watch!!
And I think we're getting into show stuff I haven't seen yet, so I may just....vacate the premises... *tiptoes away*
*comes back* If Shae were a Sand Snake that would be so cool!! I love Shae and I was just wondering if her accent was supposed to be Dornish! _________________
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