Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 10438 Location: On the run! (With Sandor)
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:07 pm Post subject:
Quote:
If I thought they could handle an Oberyn/Loras subplot well I might be excited, but I don't think they can.
I agree.
Aren't the Martells and the Tyrells enemies of some sort in the books? It would be very interesting if Oberyn/Loras would turn out to be more than just another lame gay storyline for a character who doesn't seem to have any other qualitites on the show than just... being gay ... but maybe rather something political. Plotting against the Lannisters, maybe? I have my doubts if they'll take it there though.
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Besides, at this point in the books I'm pretty sure Loras is still deep in mourning for Renly and I can't see him wanting to get with anybody else!
Ugh, don't get me started on that!
I was SO upset about Loras's sex scene with that servant from Littlefinger's brothel. Renly wasn't even dead for too long at that time. They're making Loras look like such a horny little sl*t (sorry about the word ).
As for Shae (possible spoilers for upcoming storylines!!!)
Spoiler:
if they stick with GRRM's original story, I believe that Tywin may have found Shae just as she was about to leave Westeros. And well... we know the rest of the story.
The problem that I have with this is that TV!Shae, like you said, is very different from Book!Shae. We don't get much insight into Book!Shae and her feelings for Tyrion. So when Tyrion fund her in his father's bed I assumed that Book!Shae never cared about Tyrion - that all she ever cared about was money, fine clothing and expensive gifts, no matter which Lannister she got those things from.
I find it hard to believe, however, that TV!Shae did NOT care about Tyrion. The only motif she'd have for jumping into Tywin's bed is taking revenge on Tyrion for him trying to send her away. And she would definitely hurt him in the worst possible way by doing that.
I find it hard to believe that TV!Shae would do that.
Book!Shae yes, but not TV!Shae.
D&D would be complete morons to destroy this character after putting so much time and effort into shaping her up as a character.
And yet, I totally believe that they would go down this road, unfortunately.
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:08 am Post subject:
I don't remember where the Martells and Tyrells stand in the books as far as whether they're friends or enemies - the Martells are surely friendlier with the Tyrells than with the Lannisters, at least. I think if they had a common goal they could be powerful allies but since the Martells seem to want to (book spoilers)
Spoiler:
get Myrcella on the throne
that might go against the Tyrells' best interests! Especially since the Tyrells have chosen to side with the Lannisters.
But yes. I don't think they will have thought through any political interests here. The only reason Oberyn and Loras are making eyes at each other is because they both like men.
I hated that sex scene last season too!!!! It's so disappointing - Loras and Renly's relationship was hardly even explicitly stated in the books (more implied, just bc we never get either of their POV) yet book!Loras is so much more upset by his death!!!! We did get that moment in the last episode of Loras storming out during that skit, but other than that he hasn't shown much sadness about Renly's death. They cut his conversation with Sansa where she brought up Renly, and his conversation with Tyrion when he said "when the sun has set no candle can replace it." So mad. I don't know what they think they're doing with that character. And it's such a shame bc if you've ever watched an interview with Finn Jones he is SUCH a fan of the books and of the character!
About Shae
Spoiler:
Agreed - with the development they've given Shae and Tyrion's relationship on the show, I couldn't possibly believe that Shae would betray him OR that he would ever believe she didn't love him. I hope they realize that the original ending to her story can't make sense at this point. They've spent so long making the fans like her, and besides, she's invested in Sansa as well as Tyrion now! I honestly have no idea how they're going to finish this. Perhaps it won't be Tyrion to kill her? Maybe Tywin will do it and that will be Tyrion's motivation to kill him? Or maybe, like you said, they'll just swap out the Tysha storyline and have Shae fill that role.
in the book, wasn't there a poison crystal or something on the hair net Dontos gave Sansa, and it basically fell into his goblet or something? I can't remember... but clearly the necklace was the hair net here. So--there's a part where Olenna is talking to Sansa and her hands are all over her. At one point she even touches the necklace and tugs down on one of the crystals and her hand drops quickly to her side. So do you think there was a poison vial hidden in there or something, and then she tipped it into his goblet when no one was looking? I can't even imagine, but I'm excited to hear how they explain it since it was a bit different from the book.
By the way, my mom was *determined* to figure out who did it, so all night the night we watched it and all the next day she kept calling me with her various theories. She finally figured it out, though I did kind of nudge her into some general directions.
The Loras/Oberyn thing bothered me a lot, but only because I hate the mentality that all gay people are attracted to all other gay people. It would be nice to have Loras be around a gay person that he isn't attracted to for a change. But although: Oberyn Freaking Martell! It's okay, Loras. We all want him, too.
I got a little misty-eyed for Jaime and Cersei, too. I remember in the books how painful it was for Cersei. As much of a relief as it is to be done with the Joffrey era, I do feel bad for them.
But the real heartbreak of the night was Theon. My goodness, Alfie!!! He looked truly and genuinely mentally disabled and I just felt so very deeply sorry for Theon. My heart already goes out to him, but Alfie is realy bringing it home. I would really love to see him win something for this.
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject:
Spoiler:
In the book it was Olenna who put the crystal in the goblet too, so I think it's just the same thing here, except the crystal was on the necklace instead of a hair net, so Olenna took it when she was talking to Sansa!
Yes, Alfie was amazing in this episode! I knew it was going to be so hard to watch the Reek scenes and he's proving me right. He's doing such a great job! I'm not always happy with what the show decides to do with Theon but Alfie is always fantastic. I liked that we got to see the scene where he finds out Robb is dead. _________________ art by me&tammy
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 13684 Location: having a bowl of brown with Davos
Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:41 pm Post subject:
KajaM wrote:
Spoiler:
if they stick with GRRM's original story, I believe that Tywin may have found Shae just as she was about to leave Westeros. And well... we know the rest of the story.
The problem that I have with this is that TV!Shae, like you said, is very different from Book!Shae. We don't get much insight into Book!Shae and her feelings for Tyrion. So when Tyrion fund her in his father's bed I assumed that Book!Shae never cared about Tyrion - that all she ever cared about was money, fine clothing and expensive gifts, no matter which Lannister she got those things from.
I find it hard to believe, however, that TV!Shae did NOT care about Tyrion. The only motif she'd have for jumping into Tywin's bed is taking revenge on Tyrion for him trying to send her away. And she would definitely hurt him in the worst possible way by doing that.
I find it hard to believe that TV!Shae would do that.
Book!Shae yes, but not TV!Shae.
D&D would be complete morons to destroy this character after putting so much time and effort into shaping her up as a character.
And yet, I totally believe that they would go down this road, unfortunately.
Spoiler:
If they don't have Tyrion strangle Shae then it would be another case of the producers trying to make Tyrion look better for audience viewers which would suck because they do this all the time. Shae does love Tyrion in the show but people who love each other can do terrible things to each other. It just makes it more that much more tragic in the end. So if Shae does betray Tyrion then I hope they don't pussy away from that.
You are right Eryn it is apparently
Spoiler:
the Tyrells
who are behind the plot according to the ASOIAF wiki.
Spoiler:
I always thought it was Littlefinger but I thought it wasn't confirmed in the book. Littlefinger is involved too apparently which must explain my reasoning for that.
It's so easy to forget things in the book they are so massive
I enjoyed the episode a lot. Parts of Bran's vision were cool but why do they have to use so much stock footage? It cheapens it for me. I wish so much that they would do more flashbacks and such. Apparently they were originally going to do a mad king flashback early on but it was cut. _________________
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 13684 Location: having a bowl of brown with Davos
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:09 am Post subject:
The new episode seemed a bit slowly paced and a placeholder but I enjoyed it nevertheless.
'scuse me for a second but..
WHY THE HELL IS STANNIS NOT GOING NORTH TO THE WALL?!
They teased that last season and it seems like they are just stalling with him.
Loved the scene between Tyrion and Pod and the Sam and Gilly scenes. They were really sweet.
I find it funny how people are saying Jaime raped Cersei It was definetly disturbing to be doing it with your son dead right there but it was in no way rape. Breaking news people Jaime is a messed up dude. He still wants Cersei and he is not going to change overnight into a cuddly bunny.
Never warmed to the Hound in the books so felt it was good that they showed he is a bit of a prick. I'm sure Hound lovers feel the same way I do about Jaime though.. that his flaws make him interesting. I am absolutely clueless where they are going with this storyline :S
Dany's speech was great and the idea of them throwing broken chains over the walls was awesome. Daario was underwhelming still? I wasn't that keen on the old actor but he's not gelling much for me. I am really missing the character of Strong Belwas and hope he turns up at some point.
Loving seeing Littlefinger back in the mix. It will be fun having someone that you love to hate now Joffrey is gone.
edit: I do think the Jaime/Cersei scene was certainly on the verge of rape now thinking about it. I probably gave Jaime a pass because they are so effed up already. Rape is a serious issue but I struggle to have any sympathy with Cersei when she has been so horrible to him although I am disappointed in Jaime. It will be interesting to see Cersei's POV next episode whether she feels violated by Jaime or it was just because it was in the sept with Joffrey there which made her uncomfortable. _________________
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:57 pm Post subject:
Paul. Listen. That wasn't "in no way rape" THAT WAS A RAPE SCENE. If someone is saying "no," "stop," and "this isn't right," while trying to fight him off, that is rape, that is literally a textbook example of rape. Which is also something Jaime would never do, NEVER, that's not in his wheelhouse at all, so I'm very upset. Someone on that writing staff apparently doesn't understand what the word rape means. How could they have Jaime do that?! I mean I'm not exactly Cersei's biggest fan either, but, um??? No?? That isn't okay??
I don't even want to touch that scene. I'm probably going to ignore its existence for the rest of time. It didn't happen in the book, so in my mind it didn't happen on the show. In the book when they had sex next to Joffrey's body it was 100% consensual. Still messed up, but it was consensual. Oh my god I'm so angry about this. Jaime Lannister is not a rapist, he's done a lot of horrible things but he is NOT a rapist.
Sorry to get all political about it but rape is honestly not taken seriously enough and half the time people don't know what even constitutes rape but just like so we're all clear...that scene. That's what rape is. And I'm afraid GoT doesn't realize that they did that.
ANYWAY. OTHER THAN THAT I actually thought it was a pretty decent episode. I don't remember Sam getting Gilly a job at an inn or anything? But my memory on those sections of the books is a little fuzzy.
The scene between Tyrion and Pod was a tearjerker. I love Podrick Payne a lot and I loved seeing how much Tyrion really cares about him too!!!
Oberyn continues to be the greatest. I cannot WAIT for him to face off with the Mountain!
I loved the scenes with Arya and the Hound too!! She's showing a surprising amount of compassion, I'm impressed and pleased with Arya!
The final scene with Dany throwing the chains over the wall was awesome!! Daario still isn't doing much for me but he hasn't had much screentime yet so I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt. I just don't like the look they have going for him. He's very generic looking....Daario should stand out. I wish they'd given him a blue beard or at least SOMETHING unusual appearance wise.
I also thought it was funny when all of Dany's advisers were trying to get her to pick them to be her champion. They're all so in awe of her! _________________ art by me&tammy
Just watched and I'm sooooooo furious about the rape scene. The whole time she was saying no and pushing him away, I kept waiting for him to just storm off, and I'm so angry that he didn't. Apparently the writers think that having her give into and even slightly return his kisses qualifies as consent, but it doesn't, especially when she's still pushing him away and asking him to stop. And regardless of whether she was saying no because she didn't want it or because they were in the sept doesn't matter. She said no and he just ignored her and forced himself on her. Ugh, ugh, UGH. I really feel like they've sullied all his growth and redemption up to this point, and now I'm going to feel like a rape apologist if I say he's one of my favorite characters. Thanks, HBO.
Even outside of that, I wasn't especially fond of the episode. I get nervous when they start doing things that aren't in the book. For example, wasn't everyone at Craster's killed by the White Walkers when Sam and Gilly took off? How are there still survivors there? That makes no sense. I just can't imagine the point of this thread they seem to be starting. I don't remember Gilly being sent to Mole's Town in the books, either.
I was glad Sansa's stuff played out right, more or less, and I liked the Pod/Tyrion scene, the Olenna/Margaery scene, and the one with Tywin and Tommen was great, too. I could have done without watching the Hound blow snot out of his nose (GROSS), but his behavior has definitely gotten rougher and I'm glad they're giving Arya a reason to hate him again.
Thanks for clearing that up about the Joffrey thing in the books, Eryn and Paul. I couldn't remember exactly how it happened.
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:55 pm Post subject:
I honestly feel like I'm just going to ignore that scene when it comes to Jaime. In the books and in the show so far he is one of my favorites. I feel like the writers don't understand that what he did was rape. The Jaime I know and love would not do that. They sullied his character for this episode. I can't decide if it's worse for them to ignore that scene (so we can!!!) or for them to address it. Because if Jaime gets called out for rape on the show, then that DRASTICALLY changes his character and the way others will interact with him. I don't know how they plan on explaining that away. Good men don't rape people, and Jaime Lannister is, at his heart, a good man. I feel like the writers KNOW Jaime is a good person, so I can't imagine why they thought this was okay!! Yes, in the book they had sex in the sept next to Joffrey's body, but in the book Cersei WANTED it, she was actively consenting and telling Jaime she wanted it!! I'm just so angry that they thought this was an acceptable deviation from the book!!! _________________ art by me&tammy
“Yes, and no,” says Coster-Waldau. “There are moments where she gives in, and moments where she pushes him away. But it’s not pretty.”
He adds, “It’s going to be interesting what people think about it.”
Quote:
The reason I ask is because many of the people who have read the books are questioning why the scene was changed. As described in the book, told from Jaime’s point of view, Cersei initially resists but quickly gives her consent.
I see, I see. What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began, but Jaime and Cersei, their entire sexual relationship has been based on and interwoven with risk. And Jaime is very much ready to have sex with her because he hasn’t made love to her since he got back, and she’s sort of cajoled into it, and it is consensual. Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual. [The writers] tried to complicate it a little more with her rejecting his new hand and the state of things.
Quote:
You say it “becomes consensual by the end.” I rewatched the scene this morning, and it ends with Cersei saying, “It’s not right, it’s not right,” and Jaime on top of her saying, “I don’t care. I don’t care.” It leaves some room for debate. Were you involved with cutting the scene? Was there a longer version of the scene that might have read more like they were both consenting?
It’s my cut of the scene. The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.
Right, and part of what she’s resisting is that this is all happening next to Joffrey’s body.
It’s bizarre, and I highlighted that in how I shot it. A funny behind-the-scenes joke was every time we shot a take, and Lena and Nikolaj drop beneath the table, Jack Gleason would sit up and look down to try and see what was going on.
It does seem like they intended it to be consensual by the end but they didn't portray it very well. I blame the director which is worrying because he is a very prominent director on the show. _________________
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:22 am Post subject:
I think they intended it to be interpreted as consensual too. But it wasn't. That wasn't a consensual sex scene and they should know better. It bothers me that Nikolaj and the director are both claiming it wasn't rape. Just because she gave in physically doesn't mean it wasn't rape.
However, this isn't the first time GoT has turned a consensual sex scene into rape - remember Dany's wedding night? In the book Drogo waited for her to say yes, but on the show she was resisting and crying and clearly didn't want it. _________________ art by me&tammy
Ugh, those quotes make it even worse for me. I have a feeling there will be a huge backlash from this if there isn't already and hopefully they'll learn from it, but I'm not holding my breath. And yeah, Eryn, the Dany/Drogo thing bugged me, too.
Last edited by eloramoon on Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 16336 Location: Searching for Middle Earth
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:23 am Post subject:
Yeah, I agree - he's trying to pass off a rape scene as consensual but just more "complicated" than it is in the book. At LEAST Nikolaj recognizes that "it's not pretty" but he's not fully recognizing it for what it is either.
Tbh I don't expect they'll address it much on the show. I kind of imagine we'll be expected to just move on and be fine with wherever Jaime's story goes from here. Because if they decided they WERE going to address it and treat it as rape, then, well, they've effectively destroyed Jaime's character in a single scene, haven't they? _________________ art by me&tammy
with the whole Craster's story line, and even more so now that Bran and Co. are there. I just can't even imagine where they're headed with this, or how it could be solving a page-to-screen issue. All last season I was thinking they were blowing through Jon's time with the wildlings and Bran's progress to the wall way too quickly, and now it seems like they've realized they have nothing to do with them this season so they're just making stuff up.
I did not enjoy or appreciate seeing Hodor in chains and being beaten. If they kill him I'm going to be super pissed.
I'm really concerned that they're going to have Jon and Bran meet up at Craster's, and I feel that would be a mistake. I think it's thematically important that all of the Stark kids are separated and on their own paths. Plus, there's no way Jon would just let Bran go on his merry way, so I really hope that's not their plan. Again, I can't fathom the point of even having them all end up at Craster's. So dumb. And I'm mad that they have Ghost and Summer now, too.
The end scene was cool but I have no idea what to think of it. That is what I suspected was happening, but I didn't expect to see it ahead of the seasons covering books six or seven since we haven't seen it in the books. Did you notice he was different from the other White Walkers we've seen?
I did however love all the Jaime scenes. The scene with him and Bron, where Bron talked about Tyrion naming Jaime his champion at the Eyrie, and is Jaime doing all he can to save him now--that was epic and would have been so great in canon. I also loved him and Tyrion with the, "Are you really suggesting I would kill your son?" "Are you really suggesting I would kill my brother?" So epic. And, of course, Jaime and Brienne and Oathkeeper. Awesome. My one concern:
Spoiler:
I feel like they're trying to make the audience wonder if he's using Brienne to get Sansa for Cersei, because he very poignantly didn't answer Cersei when she asked him if he'd find and kill Sansa for her. Hopefully people don't think that's the deal.
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... but maybe rather something political. Plotting against the Lannisters, maybe? I have my doubts if they'll take it there though.
He's doing such a great job! I'm not always happy with what the show decides to do with Theon but Alfie is always fantastic. I liked that we got to see the scene where he finds out Robb is dead.
I just don't like the look they have going for him. He's very generic looking....Daario should stand out. I wish they'd given him a blue beard or at least SOMETHING unusual appearance wise.
I'm just so angry that they thought this was an acceptable deviation from the book!!!