All too true, maybe you should leave us to our "sandbox" Just kidding.
You know, I didn't think about it at the time but my "high road" comment probably sounded like I meant I was "above" everybody else who was taking part in this discussion and I didn't mean it that way AT ALL. I was struggling with my own "darker and better angels" as too how much and how strongly to present my Kate defense. And after I'd launched into this lovely, long, detailed rebuttal, I realized that it wasn't worth it to finish it, so I took my own personal "high road" rather than risk offending anybody by what I was going to say. That was what I meant by that, not me being better than anybody else, or anything like that! Hopefully, though, you guys knew that already...
Actually I think you misinterpreted us, or at least me... I took it as you were better than us because you chose not to mention characters trying to defend your stance. As you put it, it can cause ill feelings that aren't needed. So yes, I think it's safe to say we understood what you meant.
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(she's tough, she climbs trees, shoots guns -- though apparently can't outshoot a doctor -- and all that), she's still caught in a bit of a cliche: a woman's world revolves around The Man. Or The Men, in this case.
In the words of my sister who loves Kate: "She's a total bad a**" Which is true. She's made out to be a strong independent woman, but the triangle is hindering her. Cliches, I know!! I mentioned two others before, which doesn't bear repeating, who are cliche and it bugs me half to death. I stand on 2 things that we don't know about Jack:
Spoiler:
1) half-brother to Claire. 2) He's some sort of military
so you can't really blame the girl for being outshot.
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I could also argue the point that ALL of the other characters act as props at one time or another. However, I'll refrain from naming names and siting examples. I DO get your point, however. But, it's like with anything, if you like the character, you'll forgive them quite a bit. (I can only imagine what you'd say about Locke and his "I was wrong-ing" if it would've been KATE who'd said and done the things he'd done... )
I can agree that all charcters at one pint act as props. It seems that we all can agree that favorite characters are forgiven more than characters we don't favor and tend to not pay too close attention to because of it. I love how people are brining up Locke's recognition of his "wrong-ing" lol, but if were Jack or Sawyer I could see where you're coming from.
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*steps out of the sandbox, returns to baking cookies*
Haha, touche _________________
I have spread my dreams under your feet; tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
Joined: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 11211 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:39 am Post subject:
Sorry I said I'd try and leave Kate alone now didn't I? Ug... Well, just ab it more. I'm not trying to pick on Kate specifically over any other. She's just the character of subject right now and she's such a main one at that! I'm sure next week we'll all be moving on to Locke though, so no worries
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Couldn't say it better myself, though I disagree on her being a supporting character since I consider Jack, Sawyer, Kate the "big 3" (reference to DC Comics, WOOO!! I'm a nerd)
Sorry, bad choice of words. I mean't "supporting" as in supporting the Skate/Jate love triangle, as Jack and Sawyer are too (only to a lesser extent since they only have Kate to deal with in that sense lol). I meant I still love Kate as a "shippy" character, being part of the whole love connection, but by herself I'm not as happy with her. But then again, that might have been what you thought from what I first said lol.
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If you slid any of the other female characters into this slot, I'd bet you dollars for donuts that they'd suffer from the same "passive" problem that you've pointed out in Kate. (And I would also argue the point that if you'd put any other character, male or female, into Kate's position going off with Claire and Danielle in "Maternity Leave," that they wouldn't have added any more substantially to the story than Kate did as the protector of the group.
Couldn't agree more . Yet it's not anyone else in the spot becoming the cliche (on two fronts no less: badass and triangle girl), it's Kate. She's the one suffering the fate . And if Kate has to be a cliche, why does she have to be two? It gets to the point where I can practically predict everything she does. Whenever she makes some progress towards one side -either badassness or shippyness, she always seems to come right back with an immediate counter-balance . We find out she kills someone - major Skate moment. She kisses Sawyer the first time - right after - SLAP! It's a juggling game between a love interest and a strong leading woman, yet it doesn't make sense to me. If Kate really is so badass, then why can't she stand to leave (at least one of) the guys alone? Or conversely, why does she always snap back and never open up? We all kinda know these answers, but it stll doesn't solve the problem of her being predictable and still never really growing in either way and becoming an outstanding character... just stuck in limbo.
If Kate had been one of these things - badass OR shippy, and gradually grew into both, I would like her a lot more. But I don't think she did. She began, rght from the Pilot, clinging to Jack, and in the very next ep she got her Ultimate Tough Girl persona. She's been both from the get-go and having both just takes away any of the drama that might have come from a change in her character. Now when there's one, we expect the other. It's just a surprise how
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In the words of my sister who loves Kate: "She's a total bad a**" Which is true. She's made out to be a strong independent woman, but the triangle is hindering her. Cliches,
I really agree with this. The writers seem to be trying to juggle the "triangle" character and the "bad-a**" character, but they just conflict with each other in my opinion.
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Actually I think you misinterpreted us, or at least me... I took it as you were better than us because you chose not to mention characters trying to defend your stance. As you put it, it can cause ill feelings that aren't needed. So yes, I think it's safe to say we understood what you meant.
Ditto, and I still admire you for it
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I can agree that all charcters at one pint act as props. It seems that we all can agree that favorite characters are forgiven more than characters we don't favor and tend to not pay too close attention to because of it. I love how people are brining up Locke's recognition of his "wrong-ing" lol, but if were Jack or Sawyer I could see where you're coming from.
Yep yep, I agree with you two too. However, with Locke, believe-it-or-not I actually do like him more for the whole hatch breakdown "I was wrong" thing. It makes him a lot more interresting to me. I don't like the wave of ill-feelings towards him coming from everyone else because of it , but I'm still glad it happened . There aren't too many times where I've had to "forgive" Locke. As I said, those are mainly for when the writers choose to use him as their own little Porsche and drive around another of their short stories , but this one was building up all season, and one I was hoping for .
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Just kidding.
I realized that it wasn't worth it to finish it, so I took my own personal "high road" rather than risk offending anybody by what I was going to say. That was what I meant by that, not me being better than anybody else, or anything like that! Hopefully, though, you guys knew that already... 
I said I'd try and leave Kate alone now didn't I? Ug... Well, just ab it more. I'm not trying to pick on Kate specifically over any other. 
and she's such a main one at that! I'm sure next week we'll all be moving on to Locke though, so no worries 
. Yet it's not anyone else in the spot becoming the cliche (on two fronts no less: badass and triangle girl), it's Kate. She's the one suffering the fate 
. And if Kate has to be a cliche, why does she have to be two? It gets to the point where I can practically predict everything she does. Whenever she makes some progress towards one side -either badassness or shippyness, she always seems to come right back with an immediate counter-balance 
. We find out she kills someone - major Skate moment. She kisses Sawyer the first time - right after - SLAP! It's a juggling game between a love interest and a strong leading woman, yet it doesn't make sense to me. If Kate really is so badass, then why can't she stand to leave (at least one of) the guys alone? Or conversely, why does she always snap back and never open up? We all kinda know these answers, but it stll doesn't solve the problem of her being predictable and still never really growing in either way and becoming an outstanding character... just stuck in limbo. 
