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eloramoon
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey!

I will get caught up in here soon. I'm excited to read that article and your thoughts on it, Karolina, as well as your GR review.

I wanted to just quickly address two things from earlier:

1) Why Ned wouldn't have told Cat the truth about Jon:

Spoiler:

If Jon was the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he would have been the last known Targaryen since no one knew what had become of Dany and Viserys. Add to that the fact that he's also a child of the most powerful family in the north, and he would have been seen as a huge potential threat to whoever holds the Iron Throne. Even if Robert wouldn't have hurt him (given that he was Lyanna's son) there are too many plotters and schemers in King's Landing for the baby to have ever been safe. Ned and Lyanna would have known that, and it would have been imperative that as few people as possible know the secret. Otherwise the baby's life would always be in great danger. I think that was part of the promise Ned made to Lyanna, was that he would keep Jon safe.

Also remember that Ned barely knew Cat at this point. She was supposed to marry his brother, but when Brandon died, Hoster Tully married her off to Ned instead. So it's not like they had any sort of bond or loved each other or anything. Then, they were only married a few days before he rode off to Robert's rebellion and he didn't see her again until he returned with the baby. I think it's very believable that he wouldn't have told her, because not only would he not have known whether he could trust her with such a dangerous secret, he also had more allegiance to his sister at that point.



2. Joffrey and the knife:

Spoiler:

The reason Joffrey hired that guy to kill Bran had nothing to do with Cersei and Jaime. It was just assumed that the two attempts on his life were related, but they weren't. What happened is after Bran was first injured and was unconscious and presumably dying a slow death, Joffrey overheard his father (Robert, not Jaime ) drunkenly saying that the boy should do the child a mercy and put him out of his misery, but that no one was brave enough to do it. So, presumably, Joffrey saw this as a challenge to impress his father by being the one who was brave enough to do it. Of course, when the attempt failed he obviously wasn't about to admit his hand in it.

This is all comes out in a conversation between Jaime and Cersei about 3/4 of the way through book three when she asks him if he had been the one to hire the guy, and then he tells her about Robert saying that within Joffrey's hearing, and theorizes that is why he did what he did. It makes sense that Joffrey, wanting to prove himself as better than everyone else, would latch onto this easy opportunity to show himself as bold and fearless, because of course he didn't have to do the dirty work.



I'll be back again soon!
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eloramoon
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'm back! So much to respond to so I will be as brief as possible.

First, Karolina, LOVED your ASOS review on GR!

Quote:
It really hurt to see Winterfell burning down.


I cried! That is a visual you don't get quite as effectively in the books. It was SO powerful!

Quote:
Joff and Theon, I still hate you both - may you both rot in hell! - but I love the actors. Guys, you are brilliant!


I can't help it. My heart absolutely *breaks* for Theon. The things he did were beyond terrible, but I really feel the circumstances of his life pushed him there. I can't explain why, but I get him, and I feel so awful for him. I agree on the actors, they are so amazing!

Quote:
Stannis and Melissandre are such a psycho!ship... a match made in hell!


Right???

Quote:
Since Jaqen seems to be some kind of wizard / shapeshifter... is it possible that he is Arya's old dancing master Syrio???


This is a popular theory but the general consensus is no. Faceless men are master assassins, typically on a mission, and probably not doing things like giving sword fighting lessons to the youth of the Red Keep. Also, Syrio was Braavosi while Jaqen is supposed to be Lorathi. Syrio was also the First Sword of Braavos, which gives credence to Syrio being a real identity rather than a character created by a faceless man. I tend to agree with these points, but unlike a lot of others, I'm not entirely sure about Syrio's fate after he last sees Arya.

Regarding Dany's scenes and her being a BAMF, my thoughts exactly! It was nice to see her getting to take control, being brave, and actually doing something for a change.

And YES the ending, WOW! It was TOTALLY GoT meets TWD! Soooo freaky! Really well done!

Okay, onto Paul's thoughts!

Quote:
The House of the Undying didn't disappoint although I could have done with a few more visions in there.


Yeah, I liked it but I was sad that it had to be different from the book. I understand why it was, but it would have been cool to see that version of it.

Regarding the reappearance of Drogo and also their baby... GAAAH! I cried. Oh my goodness, that was just so heartbreaking.

Quote:
The Jon and Quorin fight scene was kinda lame as it can't have been clear to viewers that he's sacrificed himself for the greater good. It was so less dramatic than in the books too.


I didn't think it came across at all. In fact, I was even confused myself, not ever knowing if they're doing something different from the books. Surprisingly my mom (who hasn't read the books) seemed to follow it just fine.

Quote:
Jaime/Brienne <3 So looking forward to more of these two in season three. Brienne again proving she is a major badass.


Love them SOOOO much! So glad we'll get to see more of them together next season.

Quote:
Loved both Stannis and Theon's musings and regrets. It was really nice to see an insight into how they were both feeling after all the crap they've been through.


LOVED these scenes SOOOO much! Especially Theon's. I thought it really did justice to the heartbreaking nature of his situation. I really felt horrible for Stannis, too. The first time I really have ever felt any emotion toward him, show or books.

Quote:
Not cool with Ros getting a possibly big 'power' role next season, although hopefully it's just Varys making her think that way. Have to wait and see how it plays out regardless.


Yeah, this I just do not get. I feel like the actress is just really well loved on the set or something and so they keep finding ways to work her in. I just don't see the point of doing more with her than they already have. I'd much rather that real characters get more screen time.

Quote:
Can't wait to see
Spoiler:

Sam the Slayer.



Same here! That will be seriously awesome!


Okay, back to Karolina!

I had a really hard time with that article because it just seemed overly nitpicky to me. I found myself thinking seriously? so much of the time, especially when they were talking about "fast-motioning" and all of that. But I really liked all of the points you pulled out of it and agree with so many of them. Overall I was pretty disappointed with season two in terms of how it translated from the books. It made me feel a lot better, though, to know that GRRM has been involved and has approved all of the changes and has even written/devised many himself. I saw someone refer to it as sort of a "director's cut" of the books, where he can go back and do things differently with the hindsight he has now. Of course, that's not where all the changes come from, though. I understand that many have to do with time/budget constraints, and just not being able to fit in all of the mythology and details. But... there are still things they have changed/added/subtracted that there just seems to be no logical reason for. Not to mention the fact that there are things they could have done a better job with, like both Dany and Jon's storylines, regardless of time/budget/translation issues.

As for Sandor/Sansa, I just honestly don't know. I think the reason they decided not to include the sexual tension is because I think that would have crossed a line for a lot of people. People get so squicky over any implication of any romantic/sexual attraction between the two characters, and I get that, because in context of modern society, a man that age having any sexual interest in a girl is a huge problem, not to mention illegal. It makes a lot of people uncomfortable. I see so many arguments about this on LJ and Tumblr. Plus, Sophie was only 15/16 during the filming of those scenes, and it's possible that there are laws regarding what they're allowed to make her do, or possibly they were just trying to be respectful to her and Rory and not make them do anything that would be uncomfortable because of her young and controversial age. I'm really happy with what they did in light of those possibilities. That's just my take on it, though.

I don't honestly feel that Sandor and Sansa were made any less important than they were in the books. I think they seemed more important to us in the books because we were so invested in their storyline, but I don't think that they were ever intended to be a major part of the story. Maybe they will be--it's hard to say--but I'm just glad we've gotten what we have. My honest-to-goodness feeling is that they would have cut out all the Sandor/Sansa scenes if it wasn't going somewhere. None of those scenes had any impact on the story in terms of moving it forward, so they could have very easily been cut to make more time for other characters/scenes. I'm very encouraged by the fact that they were in there. What remains to be seen is whether GRRM is going anywhere with them in the books. I genuinely feel that they follow the Beauty and the Beast trope in a very creative and unusual way, and that trope has not yet come full circle. I think that it will. Whether it will be in a good way or a bad way is hard to say.

I am definitely prepared for it not to go the way I want it to, but that won't stop me from daydreaming and loving what's there.

I'm so excited for you to get through book five so you can start reading/writing fan-fic and speculating. I absolutely adore hearing people's theories about where it *could* be headed. I saw a fun theory the other day that I loved that I can't wait to share with you.

Okay, I think I got it all. Thank you for sharing that article! (((HUGS)))
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can't help it. My heart absolutely *breaks* for Theon. The things he did were beyond terrible, but I really feel the circumstances of his life pushed him there. I can't explain why, but I get him, and I feel so awful for him. I agree on the actors, they are so amazing!


I know that Theon will be back in the fifth book and I've heard so many people say that they wept for him and with him in ADOD, so I guess there must be some kind of redemption for what he's done. I'm looking forward to seeing him again and I believe that Theon could indeed be a decent man, a good man, if he'd only make up his mind where he belongs - where he wants to belong - and would stop being so full of himself.

I guess the Theon I'll see in book 5 will be a different Theon though than the arrogant boy from the first two books. Or at least I hope so.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that this was one of the things I disliked about the third book:

Spoiler:

... that we never had a solution on the Theon/Robb situation.
They were like brothers and I wanted them to meet face-to-face again, so badly!

A friend of mine who's a big fan of Theon's and the Theon/Robb bromance - who doesn't read the books though - told me that she was looking for Theon's and Robb's in reunion and confrontation in S3 like crazy.
I was heartbroken when I had to tell her that she shouldn't get her hopes too high
I couldn't tell her, of course, that Robb will be dead by the end of S3 and that Theon/Robb will never happen again - unless they change that storyline on the show - and that we even may not see Theon again before, uh, S5? That's one of the disadvantages of having read the books.



Quote:
I tend to agree with these points, but unlike a lot of others, I'm not entirely sure about Syrio's fate after he last sees Arya.


Meh, Syrio = Jaqen would've been a pretty cool twist in the plot. I agree with you though: I won't believe anyone being truly dead on GoT until the last book is written and published and I've read it all. People seem to be coming back from the dead all the time so we may see him again (I don't really believe it... but it would be very cool!).

Quote:
Love them SOOOO much! So glad we'll get to see more of them together next season.


Awww, Brienne & Jaime!!! They're the one thing I'll be clinging to until I'll finally get my Sansa/Sandor reunion!!

Quote:
Yeah, this I just do not get. I feel like the actress is just really well loved on the set or something and so they keep finding ways to work her in. I just don't see the point of doing more with her than they already have. I'd much rather that real characters get more screen time.


Well, they must have some plans with her because using her to show how dangerous and manipulative Littlefinger is getting old. We get that and know that already. It would be cool to see her being used in some kind of little Varys vs. Littlefinger war though. As much as I hate Littlefinger (especially after having just finished the third book), I love his scenes with Varys and I greatly missed them in S2!!

Back onto the S2 issues:
I'm not sure if D&D care about the feedback of the fans. If they do though, they surely must've noticed that many fans all over the world were disappointed with S2 - or at least with the fact that so many things were changed and that the timeline has been messed up big time. Even I - and I was just reading the second book when S2 started - couldn't keep up with many of the changes anymore.

S2 wasn't bad, certainly not. Many things were too rushed though.

I know that budget - as you already said, Julia, is always a problem. My main issues with S2 didn't derive from budget problems though.

Looking back at S2, a few weeks after the last episode, I think that Jon Snow is probaly the thing that irked me most. Well, he and Dany. They made him look like some stupid, naive little idiot kid - and her like a whiny, bitchy little girl who reminded me so much of her brother Visery. But they're NOT! They're young and still have a lot of things to learn, but they're certainly not stupid. Arrghhh!!

I hope that D&D do read fans reactions and take them to the heart!

As for Sansan:
Well, you know me, Julia. We're on the same wavelength when it comes to Sansan.

I sure hope that Blackwater isn't the last we've seen of Sansan... but that's in George's hands only When... and if... they'll meet again, she'll be older and they'll both be different people, so you never know...
I agree that there are TOO many Sansan references in the books after Blackwater as for the story NOT to be going anywhere. Just like you though - and knowing the cruelty of George Martin - I'm prepared that it may not result in a happy ending though.

But if George decides to take them somewhere - and I have a strong feeling that he will because he seems to love both characters and having worked for that 80s Beauty & the Beast TV show he seems to have a soft spot for this type of storyline - the show will, too, hopefully! *fingers crossed*

Once again though, I managed to spoil myself: *sigh*

I wanted to see if there's a potential release date of the sixth book and I ended up reading all those wild theories and speculations on Sansa's future

They went all the way from

Spoiler:

... Sansa becoming Littlefinger's little sex toy or ending up being married to him (NO!!! Please just NOOOO!!!)

... Sansa screwing Littlefinger over, killing him and becoming a badass (YES!!!)

... Sansa - after screwing Littlefinger over - trying to be or become the Lady of the Vale OR retaking Winterfell for her family (Winterfell please!!!)

... Sansa getting married to some guy called Harry the Heir (Who the hell is that? But still - NOOOO!!!)

Only a - suprisingly - few mentioned the Sansa/Sandor option... but then again, a lot of fans probably believe him to be dead, so...

Ugh! Oh God, I hope that George will save my poor little fangirl heart from all the misery! I would LOVE to see Sansa outsmarting Littlefinger and becoming a badass, but whoever that Harry is (and I may be doing wrong by him), I don't want Sansa to marry that guy!

Besides... for all I know, Tyrion is still alive by the end of book 5, isn't he? So legally, Sansa is still married to him and cannot be wed off to any other man, huh?


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eloramoon
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sansa theories:

Spoiler:

You will find out who Harry the Heir is in book four. I think it's very likely Sansa will end up marrying him, but I think it will just be a stepping stone to whatever lies ahead for her.

I think all of us SanSan fans will absolutely be disappointed if we hope she will remain a maiden pawn for awhile and then Sandor will rescue her, sweep her off her feet, and they'll run away and have lots of babies and never be heard from again. As much as that would be a romantically happy ending, I think it would do Sansa a huge disservice, because I think she has the makings of an epic political badass. And, unfortunately running away with Sandor or marrying him would prevent her from getting where she needs to politically (since birth and marriage are really the only tools for political elevation a woman has in that world). I think she'll probably have to endure some engagements, marriages, and other political relationships to get where she needs to go. And in the meantime, Sandor can become a man who is capable of loving her the way she deserves to be loved. Right now I do think he's too rough around the edges for a real relationship. I think we all tend to romanticize him and see him through day-dreamy eyes rather than as the character he actually is and was intended to be. But... I absolutely hold out hope that he is on a path that could potentially lead him to being someone worthy of Sansa. And, once she gets settled politically (whether she ends up Lady of the Vale, Lady of Winterfell, Dany's Hand of the Queen, Queen of the North, or any other possibility, she will be in a position where she can elevate Sandor to a Lord (making him a politically acceptable match for her) and marry him, and he'll hopefully be in a place where he'll be okay with all of that. Or, maybe she will just install him in her household and never marry, and they will just have a clandestine thing. Or, maybe he will save her from something and sacrifice his life for hers. It's so hard to say. I don't know what to expect, but I have definitely had to force myself to come to terms with the fact that it probably isn't going to end with them growing old together and bouncing grand babies on their knees, lovely as that would be.

Whatever happens, I just hope we're happy with it!!!

Did you see my other post, above the last one, btw? I had some thoughts about some questions you had.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerning Sansa:

Spoiler:

Some people say that she will become the "new Cersei" - and while reading that I remembered all the "advice" Cersei gave to Sansa during the Blackwater ep.... how she should use what's between her legs since this is her only real weapon
As much as I want Sansa to become stronger, to become a political badass, I sure don't want her to become the "new Cersei". I may to clinging on to that pure, sweet and innocent girl way too much but I can't picture Sansa using "what's between her legs" as a weapon. Ugh, no!
I'd rather have her being a political badness through her wits and through making clever political alliances.

Well, I can't say much about this Harry guy - since I haven't "met" him in the books yet - but it bothers me that people say that he's a "Robert Baratheon 2.0" - drunk and with quite a few bastards here and there already. I can't - and don't want - to picture Sansa with someone like that.

I guess I'll have to wait and see though til I've met him before I can say anything about him.

I don't know if that's still an option after the fifth book, but right now (i.e. at the beginning of the fourth book), there's still Brienne and her "mission" of finding Sansa.
Could that still be a different option for Sansa's safety??

Well, either way, I'm - just like you - prepared of getting my heart broken to pieces in the last two books. Not only cencerning Sansa & Sandor but also my other favourites.

I somehow have a strong feeling that Brienne and/or Jaime will not survive the end of the saga



Oh, and yes, I have read your post about Joffrey/Bran and Ned/Lyana/Catelyn. I must've simply forgotten to reply, sorry

Spoiler:

Yes, it makes perfect sense what you said about Ned/Lyana/Catelyn.
IF Jon is truly Lyana's and Rhaegar's child there are many people who'd want to see him dead and I think it makes perfect sense that Ned would do anything to protect the kid.... even lie to his own wife and accept that people will think of him as an adulterer.

As for Joff/Bran: I must admit that I'm not too fond of the revelation. I think Joffrey is terrible enough the way he is. He doesn't need the Stark kid's blood on his hands as well. I think I would've liked it better if Cersei or Jaime had been involved in this (or Tywin, but I know that this wouldn't have made much sense, plot-wise).

I'm also a bit disappointed that Tywin died, never having addressed the Cersei/Jaime issue. He must've known about it... or at least have heard all the talk.... and I would've liked him to confront them or either of them about it.



Some thoughts on book four (I've only read the first four chapters so far though):

Spoiler:

The Martells seem to be an interesting bunch!
I was wondering though: In the first chapter of the Captain of Guard's POV Tyene is talking to Doran about her father's death and taking revenge on Gregor and the Lannisters. Anyway, there is a moment where she raises her hand and the Captain steps between her and Doran, almost as if he were afraid that she would harm him or kill him?

I think that Obara Sand will be just my type of character
Someone on the internet made a manip of Michelle Rodriguez as Obara! <3<3<3



And Doran Martell... wow, turning against his own family and taking sides with the Lannisters (Or so it seems atm).

Haha! Cersei was sure "surprised" to find Shae in her dead father's bedchamber!

I love Brienne's POV, but darn! She's too loyal for her own sake! It'll get her in trouble again sooner or later. I love how she kept thinking back though to the first time she met Renly when they both were teenagers and how she fell in love with him! Awww!!! <3<3<3
I have a strong feeling that she may fall in love with Jaime at some point.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KajaM wrote:
Sansa theories:

Spoiler:

Some people say that she will become the "new Cersei" - and while reading that I remembered all the "advice" Cersei gave to Sansa during the Blackwater ep.... how she should use what's between her legs since this is her only real weapon
As much as I want Sansa to become stronger, to become a political badass, I sure don't want her to become the "new Cersei". I may to clinging on to that pure, sweet and innocent girl way too much but I can't picture Sansa using "what's between her legs" as a weapon. Ugh, no!
I'd rather have her being a political badness through her wits and through making clever political alliances.



Spoiler:

Yeah, I wouldn't like that, either. I'm kind of hoping that she will prove that you can be a political badass without using sex, and will sort of be the antithesis of Cersei in that regard. It seems, from a storytelling point-of-view, that it would be kind of pointless to just make her into another Cersei. Especially if she ever has some kind of political showdown with Cersei. It'd be much better if she can be coming from the moral high-ground.



Quote:
Spoiler:

Well, I can't say much about this Harry guy - since I haven't "met" him in the books yet - but it bothers me that people say that he's a "Robert Baratheon 2.0" - drunk and with quite a few bastards here and there already. I can't - and don't want - to picture Sansa with someone like that.



Spoiler:

Hmm... that would have to be speculation at this point because we don't know very much about him. It is rumored that he has fathered one baseborn bastard and has another on the way, but I don't remember any mention of him being a drunk or like Robert or anything. Gosh, I hope not!



Quote:
Spoiler:

Could [Brienne] still be a different option for Sansa's safety??



It's hard to say!

Quote:
Spoiler:

The Martells seem to be an interesting bunch!
I was wondering though: In the first chapter of the Captain of Guard's POV Tyene is talking to Doran about her father's death and taking revenge on Gregor and the Lannisters. Anyway, there is a moment where she raises her hand and the Captain steps between her and Doran, almost as if he were afraid that she would harm him or kill him?

I think that Obara Sand will be just my type of character
Someone on the internet made a manip of Michelle Rodriguez as Obara! <3<3<3



Spoiler:

I really like the Martells, Doran included. I think he is just afraid of losing the peace of the status quo and of losing more loved ones.

Yes... Tyene is known for being quite dangerous even though she plays at being sweet and innocent.

I like Obara a lot. Ooo, that's a great manip! Wow! Good find!



Re: Jaime/Brienne:

Spoiler:

I don't know what's in store for those two, but even if they only end up being friends and sharing a hard won mutual respect, I would love that.

Hmm... it's interesting because I just realized how much this story is about role expectation and the people who challenge them and the people who don't...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so compared to the previous books I seem to be "speeding" through the fourth, really I started on Saturday and I'm on page 180 of, I think, about 780.

Julia, would you agree that each book so far "felt" different?

The third one - after a slow beginning - was "wow wow wow" all over the place.
The fourth, while it may not be as eventful, slowly sneaks up on you with all the plotting and conspiring going on. It's way more depressing, too, though with...

Spoiler:

... Jon sending Sam away
... the Lannisters falling apart (which I generally don't mind but I feel bad for Jaime)
... Arya being so very far away from home
... Sansa being stuck with creepy Littlefinger



Concerning Sansa in book four so far:

Spoiler:

Ok, so I couldn't help it but going all "Aww" when Sansa started taking care of lil' Robert. He may be a horrible kid, but he's on his own now and terribly misses his mother. Sansa must also be feeling very guilty over Lysa's death, even when Lysa threatened to kill her in her jealous madness.

I love that Sansa hasn't lost her soft touch though. The way she took Robert into her bed one night and called him "little one" touched my heart. Concidering that she's only about 13 - 14 in the fourth book, she's unbelievably strong (mentally, I mean).

I don't know what to make of the "Littlefinger situation" yet. I hate that he made her lie about Marillion (then again Marillion would've raped Sansa, ugh! ) but I see what you mean when you say that LF may be a valuable teacher in this "Game of Thrones" for Sansa.
She's a clever girl, seeing that she realized that "Petyr Baelish" and "Littlefinger" are two different people - and I agree that she may learn to be a clever player, too.



Conerning the Lannisters:

Spoiler:

I was wondering:

What do you think: How long has this thing with Shae and Tywin been going on before they were both killed by Tyrion? When/shortly after Tyrion was accused of having murdered Joffrey... or even earlier?

It's interesting to see how things are starting to fall apart from the Lannisters... Cersei losing both men she could always rely on (Tywin and Jaime... because I'm sure there are some big changes about to happen in the Cersei/Jaime storyline). It's interesting to see how Cersei truly never loved her father, admired yes - but never loved, yet his death seems to affect her greatly. Both positive and negative. She knows that she has lost her best ally, yet she finally feels free of all his oppressions.

And it's also interesting to see Jaime struggling with his inner demons now, now that he knows that Cersei has been with various different men while he's always been faithful to her. I think he will soon start to re-think the values of "love" and "family".
Also... is it just me, or is he getting rather fond of Tommen... unlike he ever was with Joffrey?

And Ser Kevan... tehe, looks like the Tyrells are putting out their feelers to the iron throne big time now. They're an untrustworthy bunch, although it's hard to say if they're the good guys rather than bad?



One last thing... I have to head off to work.

Brienne:

Spoiler:

Tehe, the girl's made of awesome! I was SO surprised to see that her father tried to wed her off three times.... and she fought them all off and scared them away with the sword. Way to go girl!!!

Oh, and she has just crossed paths with Pod! Now that one's gonna be interesting! Poor loyal little Pod!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some more thoughts & questions on book four:

Spoiler:

Sandor:
So, someone has taken hold of Sandor's dog helmet and is raiding the country, killing and raping. It can't be Sandor, obviously, but who the hell can it be? It must be someone from the various outlaw gangs. I DON'T think it's someone from the Brotherhood Without Banners because they seemed more like the "good guys", like the "Robin Hoods" of Westeros. So, more likely it'll be someone from the Brave Companions, I guess?
Poor Sandor
Everyone in Westeros must be thinking now that all this raping and killing is his doing. I hope someone will put it right!

Cersei:
Hmm, now that's interesting... a prophecy made to Cersei, saying that

Quote:
"Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."


Cersei seems to believe that the prophecy refers to Margaery, but that seems too easy and too obvious. It must be either Dany or Sansa. I think it would be cool if it was Sansa!

Azor Ahai:
Now this other prophecy, Melissandre's prophecy concerning "Azor Ahai", I think clearly DOES NOT refer to Stannis, even though that's what Melissandre seems or wants to believe.
I think it could be Dany... as her dragons ("fire" and "light") would be the antithesis to the darkness and the cold. I would prefer for Jon to be Azor Ahai though, really. I'm hoping that we will see him do great deeds and be one of the saviors of Westeros. Go Jon!!!



As for the rest of AFFC:

Spoiler:

Oh gods, can the Greyjoys please all drown in the sea? They're getting on my nerves! Their storyline seems so pointless! I like Cersei's, Jaime's, Sam's and Brienne's POVs, but I'd rather have some more Arya or Sansa than the stupid Greyjoys. I also greatly miss Jon and Tyrion!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm so gonna get caught up on this thread again. Been really busy with moving house stuff. Karolina book 4 gets crazy towards the end too. I really did miss some of the characters that were left out, but they come back in the next book
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gods, George is breaking my heart (just a quote from book 4, nothing really spoilerish):

Quote:
“It’s just a sword,” she said, aloud this time . . .
. . . but it wasn’t.
Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.





One thing that really irks me:

Spoiler:

What is the point of introducing YET ANOTHER character - like Arys Oakhart - just to kill him off after two chapters? Aaaaarrrghhh!!

Is this story with the Martells/Sands going anywhere? Right now, it seems just as pointless as the whole thing with the Greyjoys. Well, at least I like the Martells/Sands. The Greyjoys not so much.



Also, I seem to be suffering some kind of Bad Boy-Syndrome...

Spoiler:

... Sandor Clegane, then the Red Viper, now Gerold Dayne.

I don't know... as long as I can think back, I always had a soft spot for the bad guys with a good heart (Well, I don't know if Gerold really is a good guy, I don't REALLY think so, but he reminded me of Sandor in some way...)

WHY did George have to kill off Oberyn Martell so early? I probably really would've loved this one!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, I hope your move is going well!

Hi, Karolina!

Oh yeah, I would definitely agree that each book had quite a different feel. It can almost make the transition between them a little difficult--I think that's why they don't really feel like they get going until 1/2-3/4 of the way through. Four really does sneak up on you and five does, too. Earlier, though, I think.

Sansa and crowd:

Spoiler:

Yeah, Sansa is really coming into her own in the Vale. I think everything being set-up there is going to be a huge part of the story. It would be pretty amazing if Sansa ended up Queen of Westeros. I can think of a few ways that could happen, actually, but of course it would involve some bad stuff happening, too. I can't wait to see where the next two (or more, if he goes beyond seven as he has said he might) books go.

As for Sandor's helmet--without giving it away I'll just say you're on the right track as far as who has it!

And as for Littlefinger... The guy is a major creeper, but I do think she'll learn a lot from him. I also think he'll be instrumental in, possibly inadvertently, setting her off on whatever path she'll end up on.



Lannisters:

Spoiler:

Hmm... good question about Shae and Tywin. It's difficult to say but I don't think it ever has/will be established.

Cersei is just fascinating to watch after Tywin dies and Jaime distances himself. I think she had kind of fooled herself into believing that she was powerful by her own right, so it's actually kind of sad to watch her come to the realization that she derived all of her power from the men in her life. It makes the Tyrells a force to be reckoned with whereas before she could have crushed them just by blinking at them. I actually developed a huge soft spot for Cersei at some point during the books.

I loooooooove Jaime Lannister. So much. It really is interesting watching those callous bad boy layers peel away. Much like Cersei derived her power from the men in her life, I think Jaime sort of derived his need to be, well, a jerk! (lol!) from his relationship with his father and sister. Between always reaching to meet his father's impossible expectations (and constantly being reminded that he's a disappointment) and having to hide this really significant part of his life (his clandestine/taboo relationship with Cersei and the existence of his three children), and then also just having this reputation for being a callous bad-ass which I think just kind of ran away from him, especially with the whole Kingslayer thing. It's like he had to develop this awful hardened-shell even though it probably wasn't by choice. I could talk about Jaime all day. He completely fascinates me. I can't help it--I'm the same with Theon. As far as Jaime's fondness of Tommen, I think if nothing else he does realize that he's a good kid, whereas he definitely saw that Joffrey was a monster.



The Tyrells:

Spoiler:

No idea what to think of them, even way further into their story than where you are. I'll be curious to hear what you think when you get further and to hear Paul's take, too. My feeling is that they're like most houses in Westeros, which is they're not "bad" like Mad King Aerys was bad, or like Walder Frey is bad. But, I think they're no better than they have to be. I think they're power-hungry and looking for a leg-up. I think they'd love to see themselves as the new Lannisters.



Brienne:

Spoiler:

I love her so much, and I love her teaming up with darling Pod!



Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised/Stallion Who Mounts the World:

Spoiler:

Also known as AA, TPTWP, and SWMtW.

There is sooooo much awesome and interesting speculation about these three prophecies, whether they all three refer to the same person, whether they're three different people, defunct, or some combination thereof.

I definitely agree that Stannis is not AA. Here's the prophecy:

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

There is an addition to this prophecy which you'll get in Dance which further proves it can't be Stannis. Oh, and also Melisandre says AA will be born among smoke and salt.

My theory is that it is Dany or Jon. In Dany's case, the burning sword could actually be symbolic of the dragons--sword just being symbolic of "weapon"--and they are definitely a burning weapon. And, Drogon is black but has a lot of red coloring as well. Plus, she was re-born among smoke (Drogo's pyre) and salt (her tears).

As for Jon, some people theorize that Longclaw is lightbringer (though I can't remember what reasons there are for this) and though he did not "draw" it from the flames, he did earn it after fighting off the wight in Jeor's room when it was on fire. Maybe a stretch but it could work, I guess. Other parts of the various AA prophecies could also potentially work for Jon, but I think it's more clear with Dany. Which could be a good thing or a bad thing. LOL!

Another possibility is that Dany is AA, Jon is TPTWP, and SWMtW is somebody else or is defunct. I've seen people theorize that Dany is the SWMtW.

It's so fun to speculate!



Greyjoys:

Spoiler:

I really like the Greyjoys even though they're so barbaric. Well, I don't like Euron, but I think he's pretty over-the-top even for an Iron Islander. Mostly I just like Asha a lot and have a broken heart for Theon. But, having said that, their chapters are kind of grueling. I think because they just came out of nowhere. I think it would have been smart for GRRM to introduce them much earlier than he did. Or something. I don't know. It's just such a different feeling from the rest of the story, it's a little off-putting even if some of the characters/situations are interesting.



OMG, yes, that quote regarding Needle/Arya! Augh! It had me sniffling, too.

Aerys Oakheart:

Spoiler:

Yeah--I wondered about why he was introduced/killed, too. The one problem I had with Book Four is that it felt like GRRM had gotten bored with his own story and was having to invent all of these different characters and places to stay interested.

I actually really like the Martells/Sands and find them pretty interesting, but it's a lot to take in when you're on book 4 of 7. I do think the Martell/Sand story is going somewhere, though. I mean, it definitely does from where you are, but I think they (and the Martells) will feature pretty heavily into books six and seven.



LOL on the bad boy syndrome! I'm the same way. I think that's the magic of GRRM. He can take any character you hate and make them sympathetic somehow. Well, almost any character. There are some who he doesn't try to make sympathetic.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KajaM wrote:


The moments of gold:
Jaime!! Brienne!! JAIME & BRIENNE!!
I love these two beyond words, especially when they’re together! Their road trip was thrilling, sometimes hilarious, sometimes downright horrific (e.g. Jaime losing his hand or Brienne’s cage fight with a bear). Brienne is simply one of the most wonderful characters in the saga. Yes, she is stubborn and sometimes doesn’t appear to be the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but she is kicka**, noble and loyal (yeah, sometimes too loyal for her own damn good!!). She seems to be bringing the best out of Jaime… without even really trying to! I could never really make up my mind whether I wanted to see these two fight or make out *lol* I can’t possibly wait to see Gwendoline and Nikolaj act the hell out of this road trip together on the show!

Jaime!!
I just HAVE TO give him some extra credit here. I despised that character in Book 1 and most of Book 2 for being so violent, ruthless and full of himself… and then George easily managed to totally mess up my feelings towards this character! Jaime is full of flaws, yes he sure is, but he is also full of (self-)doubts and regrets and guilt. George has managed to present a completely different side of Jaime Lannister, and Jaime – to my own surprise – became a favourite of mine in the third book!



I love Brienne. Wish we had more female characters like her to root for in other media. They don't necessarily have to be more masculine, but they need to be badass and almost asexual so they don't get tangled up in love triangles and such Really looking forward to Jaime and Brienne in season 3. It's going to be really great to see Brienne's influence on Jaime to become a better person. Gonna be some epic stuff.

I am right there with you on Jaime. I wanted to hate him so bad but he has so many redeeming qualities, you just have to love him. His character growth is going to be so amazing.

KajaM wrote:


Sansa
Well, since we were already talking about Sansa as well, let me just say that I cannot praise the girl enough for being so strong and brave (mentally), especially after all she’s been through. Being betrothed to the evil, yet craven little git Joffrey, being married to Tyrion (though this was still one of the “better” things to happen to her), being stuck at the Eyrie with her horrible aunt, her nasty cranky little nephew and Littlefinger (aka the world biggest creep!) is sure more than enough to make even the strongest, grown-up woman break on the inside. Sansa, a girl of only – what? – thirteen or fourteen years (?) at this point of the saga remains strong and brave as ever though and, on the contrary, even seems to grow bolder as can be seen from moments like her pushing Littlefinger away as he tries to kiss her (arghhh!!!)



Littlefinger kissing Sansa was really creepy. That's kinda my take on the Hound and Sansa too though. Loving an underage girl in that way is still morally wrong so I can't really bring myself to ship them. Their scenes are really interesting and play really well, but I just feel they are always one step away from becoming uncomfortable.

KajaM wrote:


Catelyn!!!
Ok, so and if you thought that the Red Wedding was the most shocking moment of the saga so far, than you haven’t met Zombie!Cat – goddess of vengeance – yet!!



That caught me off guard almost as much as The Red Wedding. You really can't say for sure characters are dead in ASOIAF. I pray that Cat gets reunited with her kids at some point. That would so amazing.

KajaM wrote:


Dany
When I started reading the books I was very sure that Dany would be THE key figure in the GoT saga. While I still like to believe so, I’m a bit disappointed with where her journey’s been going in Book 2 and 3. I know that she – like so many others – is a flawed character. She is still very young, she still has a very long way to go, she still has a lot of things to learn (and a lot of mistakes to make) but her story is dragging on without any light at the end of the tunnel – or so it seems. As much as I loved her in the House of the Undying in the second book and the Dracarys!moment with the slavers in the third book (without any doubt two of the most powerful moments of the saga so far), it feels like her story isn’t really going anywhere :-/



Completley agree. Although on some level I like that her story is stalling. It would be so easy to have her just invade Westeros as that would be on the surface, the next logical step for her to make. In reality like it says in the book, noone loves her in Westeros so she isn't going to get much support, her dragons are not fully grown so aren't going to be much help. It makes sense but I guess it doesn't help much when you just want some damn action and adventure in Dany's storyline.


Quote:
Bran
I love Bran! I love Hodor! I love the Reeds! But, geez, is this going anywhere??


Yes it is. Sorry had to tease

Quote:
Littlefinger
Don't get me wrong. The storyline with Littlefinger/Lysa/Sansa was amazing! The revelation of Lysa having murdered her own husband at Petyr's bid was a big surprise and Petyr pushing Lysa through the Moon Door was a jaw-dropper! I hate him though! He's a creep! He's a snake! And Sansa has to get outta there ASAP!


I loved that scene too! It was so cool. Still can't help but love Littlefinger but did prefer him when he was sparring with Varys in Kings Landing. Still hoping that he has the best interests of Sansa at heart and will reuinite her with her mum or something like that. He's a total creeper though and needs to stop putting the moves on her.

Quote:
Stannis & Melissandre (aka the Match-made-in-Hell)
I REALLY don’t know what to make of these two. Are they evil? Are they good? Are they mentally deficient? *lol* I sure have to keep an eye on them!


i'm halfway through book 5 and I'm still not sure about Melisandre and this is after
Spoiler:

a Melisandre POV chapter.

If you notice though George does seem to present people or groups that we would consider immediately bad, and flip them around. The religion of Rh'llor automatically aligns itself to Satanism in my book with all the sacrifices, the red god etc. Demons in fantasy fiction often have that apostrophe in their name. That's not to say that George could flip his own construct on it's head though. My own take is that Melisandre believes everything she says, that Stannis is Azor Ahai etc. but there is still the potential for her to be straight up wrong about that and how she interprets her visions and stuff llike that.


Quote:
All in all, the third book is by far the best one of the saga so far. Absolutely epic! (And I sure hope they'll do justice to this mind-blowing part on the show!!)[


It's my favourite book too. It's gonna be crazy next year We are gonna get two full seasons to cover book 3 aswell so there should be some good times ahead.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

]
Quote:
I can't help it. My heart absolutely *breaks* for Theon. The things he did were beyond terrible, but I really feel the circumstances of his life pushed him there. I can't explain why, but I get him, and I feel so awful for him. I agree on the actors, they are so amazing!


Quote:
I know that Theon will be back in the fifth book and I've heard so many people say that they wept for him and with him in ADOD, so I guess there must be some kind of redemption for what he's done. I'm looking forward to seeing him again and I believe that Theon could indeed be a decent man, a good man, if he'd only make up his mind where he belongs - where he wants to belong - and would stop being so full of himself.


Just because you don't love, lurrrrvee a character doesn't mean you can't feel sorry for him. There's plenty to feel sorry for. Theon might well be a villian of ASOIAF but there are some characters that take the biscuit when it comes to being downright evil.

Quote:
Yeah, this I just do not get. I feel like the actress is just really well loved on the set or something and so they keep finding ways to work her in. I just don't see the point of doing more with her than they already have. I'd much rather that real characters get more screen time.


Quote:
Well, they must have some plans with her because using her to show how dangerous and manipulative Littlefinger is getting old. We get that and know that already. It would be cool to see her being used in some kind of little Varys vs. Littlefinger war though. As much as I hate Littlefinger (especially after having just finished the third book), I love his scenes with Varys and I greatly missed them in S2!!


I don't hate her as a character as other people in the fandom seem to. It's good to have a viewpoint from a 'smallfolk' character but if you start placing her in a major power position, then it loses the whole point of her character. Oh and did I mention she has an amazing rack? Doubt you will sympathise on that one.

Quote:
Back onto the S2 issues:
I'm not sure if D&D care about the feedback of the fans. If they do though, they surely must've noticed that many fans all over the world were disappointed with S2 - or at least with the fact that so many things were changed and that the timeline has been messed up big time. Even I - and I was just reading the second book when S2 started - couldn't keep up with many of the changes anymore.


It frustrates me to no end that the season is only 10 episodes long. It's simply not long enough to tell the whole story. A lot of the changes are as a result of this, I bet.

Quote:
Looking back at S2, a few weeks after the last episode, I think that Jon Snow is probaly the thing that irked me most. Well, he and Dany. They made him look like some stupid, naive little idiot kid - and her like a whiny, bitchy little girl who reminded me so much of her brother Visery. But they're NOT! They're young and still have a lot of things to learn, but they're certainly not stupid. Arrghhh!!


Jon and Dany's storylines are where a lot of my problems were with season 2. They should have had more Jon and less Dany I think and it would have been a lot better. The changes they made with Arya were really good and I wasn't bothered by the stuff they left out either.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, my internet was down for a while today and while I wrote this. So forgive me for not using any quotes or missing out on things we were discussing. I had to scratch it all from my memory

Oh, and I just need to have another fangirl moment here if you’ll excuse me

Spoiler:

Quote:
Jaime’s golden hand cracked him across the mouth so hard the other knight went stumbling down the steps. His lantern fell and smashed, and the oil spread out, burning.
“You are speaking of a highborn lady, ser. Call her by her name. Call her Brienne.”


Squeeee! Jaime & Brienne are easily my OTP next to Sansa & Sandor! While I doubt that they will have any kind of romantic future together, I hope George won’t let them both die!!



Ok, back on topic

Bran:
Well, I’m glad to hear there’s more of a storyline coming up for him in Book 5! I love the boy dearly, but George could’ve done more with him so far, imo.

The Greyjoys:
I agree with you, Julia: I like Asha well enough, too, and I’m actually looking forward to having Theon back in Book 5! As for the rest though…. I don’t know. I can’t warm up to neither Aeron nor Victarion and Euron seems to be quite a bit of a madman. I can’t believe

Spoiler:

that he really intends to find Dany and make her his wife…. ewwww!



Cersei:
Before book 4, I thought of her as a rather shallow character. I still don’t like her much (she doesn’t seem to be a very clever person, imo, and she is still cruel and cold), but I can sympathize with her situation… being caught between all those vain and ambitious men all her life, while lusting for power herself yet not being able to get it because… well, because she is a woman.
I can tell that she loves her children, all of them, but each one in a different way. Joffrey seems to have been the one she loved most though (probably because he is more like her than Myrcella and Tommen??). I must admit though that this surprised me a lot because – on the TV show – I never had the impression that Cersei was particularly fond of Joffrey or proud of him?

It was also a real surprise that

Spoiler:

Cersei, as a girl, had been in love with Rhaegar Targaryen and that she was hoping to be his wife one day. Wow! I didn’t see that coming. She would’ve probably been a very different person if she’d married someone like Rhaegar, I guess.

What do you two think: Whom is the prophecy referring to… the one about a young queen more beautiful than Cersei who will bring her down? Margaery? Dany? Sansa?



Littlefinger/Sansa/Sandor:
I see what you mean, Paul.
I agree that the thought of a 13-year-old girl and a grownup man is pretty creepy.
The thing is though (and by saying this I am NOT trying to defend it!) that in the world of ASOIAF it is considered as pretty normal and common to wed a young girl to a much older man. It was also pretty common in “our” world, in medieval times, to arrange marriages that way. From today’s POV it’s pretty creepy, sure thing.
I like Sansa/Sandor though because I believe that – someday – when she is older they could be a good match. She will be a lot stronger and tougher, she won’t be that annoying little bird anymore. He, on the contrary, may be “softer” and less furious and ferocious when we see him again… just as Sansa hoped for him to be (points at banner ). They would meet on “eye-level”, if you know what I mean. I think they could learn from one another and “heal” each other in many ways. I know that, in the end, it may only be my wishful fangirl thinking, it may never come true, but I just like the idea, you know

Sansa/LF freaks me out though because he sees and WANTS to see Catelyn in her… whether really as a replacement for Cat or as the daughter he could’ve had with her, I don’t know. I drives me nuts… just as it drives me nuts not to know what his motifs and motivations are for ALL of his actions. The man is a mystery to me!

Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised/Stallion Who Mounts the World:
Uhhohh, so much awesomeness! I can’t wait to discuss all the possibilities for the all the various characters once I’m finished with AFFC and ADWD!

Paul, have you finished the fifth book?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm 67% through it on my kindle at the minute and just found out [spoiler for book 5):

Spoiler:

Brienne is alive after all! And she is also reuinted with Jaime *swoon* lol Just now I am worried she's been forced into killing him. Please no ><



Quote:
Bran:
Well, I’m glad to hear there’s more of a storyline coming up for him in Book 5! I love the boy dearly, but George could’ve done more with him so far, imo.


Yeah.. he doesn't get much to do once he leaves Winterfell but there is some serious gamechanger stuff with Bran so stay tuned

Greyjoys: I love Asha too. Victarion is alright. I feel sorry for him.. Euron is really creepy though. Some of the random chapters that he puts in, concerning the Greyjoys and Dornish and such are very jarring when you just want to see what happens to the regular characters. They really do help down the line though when all that stuff comes into more of a focus.

Quote:
I agree that the thought of a 13-year-old girl and a grownup man is pretty creepy.
The thing is though (and by saying this I am NOT trying to defend it!) that in the world of ASOIAF it is considered as pretty normal and common to wed a young girl to a much older man. It was also pretty common in “our” world, in medieval times, to arrange marriages that way. From today’s POV it’s pretty creepy, sure thing.
I like Sansa/Sandor though because I believe that – someday – when she is older they could be a good match. She will be a lot stronger and tougher, she won’t be that annoying little bird anymore. He, on the contrary, may be “softer” and less furious and ferocious when we see him again… just as Sansa hoped for him to be (points at banner ). They would meet on “eye-level”, if you know what I mean. I think they could learn from one another and “heal” each other in many ways. I know that, in the end, it may only be my wishful fangirl thinking, it may never come true, but I just like the idea, you know


Yeah. I totally get where you are coming from. Maybe with me it's just I'm not too keen on The Hound as a character. To contradict myself he is a fantastic character with all his layers and stuff, but I still haven't forgiven him for killing Micah. Also Sansa seems to be the only person he treats with any real respect. If it was me or you that crossed paths with him we'd probably end up with a broken limb or two at least lol His preoccupation with killing and his lust for it creeps me out. I guess it really didn't help on the show too when he was gonna slaughter one of my faves Bronn for nothing. I suppose they made it up in the end some though

Quote:
Azor Ahai/The Prince That Was Promised/Stallion Who Mounts the World:
Uhhohh, so much awesomeness! I can’t wait to discuss all the possibilities for the all the various characters once I’m finished with AFFC and ADWD!


That sounds like a very interesting discussion. Count me in
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