Lost Video Island

cylune · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject:

In this case the odd vote was done by an expert vidder. (CM are expert vidders and their votes have the same weight) That why it's got such an impact. The calculations are right - it's 2.5, on the verge of silver and gold.

Look, I'll vote on it tonight and it's going to make that bronze having less of an impact. Or you may get another bronze. I can be harsh... sometimes.

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thefilmchick · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject:

mistojen · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject:

SuperKC · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject:

How do you know that people who leave a bronze vote don't ALSO comment on the video in the thread? You have no way of knowing that.

Just because someone leaves you feedback doesn't mean they automatically gave your vid a vote of gold. And just because someone leaves an anonymous bronze vote doesn't mean they don't leave feedback.

Personally, I hardly ever switch my votes over to visible. Even when I vote gold. I can only think of a handful (if that!) of times I have done that.

It is clear by this discussion that many people feel that if the overwhelming majority of people give a gold or a silver vote and you decide that it's only going to get a bronze from you, that it isn't acceptable - that the bronze vote is given somehow maliciously? So why would anyone ANYONE want to do that publicly? Put themselves out there and risk retaliation votes? They wouldn't.

Not everybody has the same idea about what makes a vid "good" not everybody likes the same styles. Etc. etc. You can't say that just because everyone else thought it deserved a gold, that the person voting bronze isn't entirely justified in doing so. We all have different opinions about vidding so shouldn't that reflect also in the voting? There is no "standard" gold vid.

A bronze doesn't mean the voter thinks your vid is terrible either. They can always vote to give a vid no medal at all. To me, bronze means the vid was good, but not great. Silver is great and Gold is exceptional.

I hear a lot of talk about feedback and concrit so we can know how to improve. But there is also talk of rankings. I'm not saying I don't see how it can be frustrating. But I do wonder, what is the goal here? To force the anonymous voters to withhold their vote out of fear? Or to vote Gold on everything out of that same fear? The end result of either outcome is that everyone's rankings would shoot through the roof, because the only people voting would be those who are giving out golds.

There has always been a level of frustration with vidding, not just on this site, about getting proper feedback. Vidding, even though it is probably one of the most time-consuming types of fan-art when done properly, tends to get the least feedback of all. Why is that? I have no idea. But it's just a fact.

There are ways to improve it, and a lot of it just has to do with you know, average garden-variety networking. But even that only goes so far. I have like, nearly 200 people who watch my journal at lj and I still get no more than a handful of comments on MOST of my vids when I post there - even if I crosspost to like 10 communities haha. Occasionally, that's not the case. But generally speaking, these are the rules of the game we're playing here.

It takes a lot of time and energy to sit and watch all these vids and write out proper commentary. I wish I could do it more often. And if I weren't involved in like, fifty other things and a handful of other fandoms, I'd probably be more active in the vid threads here at LVI.

Anyway, I'm getting away from the issue at hand.

My whole point is that I think members should be able to vote how they feel without having to explain it. (Or fear being judged for their vote, retalitory votes, people not liking you because you didn't like their vid, alienating friends, etc.) And taking away anonymous voting will certainly take away the number of votes we get. And I don't think for a minute it will even begin to fix the afformentioned problem of feedback and vidding.

*arrows used to break up the sea of text. No other smiley was appropriate. ahhaha.

wolffootball37 · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject:

)great points KC, I was going to say kinda the same thing. I think people would be more afriad to vote bronze or none when your not anonymous . I do tend to vote to the norm, i dont think ive ever given an all gold or gold and silver vid a bronz or no award. But i mean voting has always been secretive. look at elections. Do you ever write your name down on the ballat? (if you accually do sorry for my ignorance.) But ther are some people who like to share and some who dont. Allot of the time ill have my name if its gold, but other than that i vote anonymously. Ive even the odd silver vote for allot of my vids. People have different terms of grading, some my look at the video as a whole and say gold.(what i usually do) and some may take the same video, break it down, and take points off for strengths and weaknesses... so really its all up to the vidder.but i do think we should have the anonymous (though i do secretly want to know who voted on my vids!

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cylune · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject:

Great points KC.

Not everyone feel like giving constructive criticism. I did a few times and got burned. It actually takes a lot of guts because you're putting yourself in the line of fire. So I really don't blame the person who gave you a bronze for not commenting (or maybe that person did actually - you don't know)
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mistojen · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject:

Concrit is a very touchy subject. When it comes to giving it, you need to know the person well enough to know if they like it blunt and to the point, if they like it sugarcoated, do they actually want concrit at all? Sometimes people say they do, but secretly all they really want is for everyone to shout from the rooftops about how amazing their video is, whether it merits those comments or not.

Therein lies the problem of concrit. If you don't know for sure what sort of thing the vidder is wanting from you, you don't give it, to be on the safe side. At least, that's how *I* roll, anyway. I've been burned from giving concrit and I've seen a lot of others being burned for giving it, too.

I see your point, thefilmchick, but at the same time, you have to put yourself in the other person's shoes. If everyone voted gold or silver and the bronze voter just did not think the vid deserved such, wouldn't YOU be afraid to put your name and opinion on that vote if you were the bronze voter? I would.

I never vote with my name attached unless it's a friend of mine and I've given them a gold. Even then, sometimes I don't. I always, ALWAYS give a reason for my vote, no matter what it is, but I hide it. The Council sees it and they know I'm not voting something random or spiteful, but I don't think the vidder always necessarily needs to (or wants to, in some cases) see what I have to say. That's just me, though, maybe.
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Charmed_Charlee · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject:

yeah, like i mentioned on the other page and like jen said if a bad vote was done out of spite, it could result in that spite being retaliated in the person who voted that bronze on their video.

But you know, i think if someone wants you to know what they think about your video they'll let you know and if they don't you know because they didn't think it was very good you won't know and i know that doesn't sound right if you are the kind of person who wants critism for your video but if someone voted badly on your video and gave critism to that the vidder who didn't want it could put them down.

So i think in a way it kinda works both ways with the anonomus voting. Anyways just me ranting on

thefilmchick · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:50 pm Post subject:

SuperKC · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:01 am Post subject:

thefilmchick · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:52 am Post subject:

mistojen · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:10 am Post subject:

I just have to ask, though...you do realize that sometimes people ARE giving reasons for their votes and that the Council is seeing them, you're just not, right? Because, I, for one, keep my reasons hidden when I'm afraid that it might hurt the vidder's feelings, ESPECIALLY if I don't know the vidder as a "friend" you know? I haven't voted on your vids, that I know of, but if I have and just don't remember, I'm probably one of the ones who kept my name and reason hidden, regardless of gold, silver, or bronze rating. Some people are just REALLY uncomfortable with giving concrit, for fear of reparations. It's just how it is, and I'm not sure anything LVI can do would ever change that...

I know that probably doesn't make you feel any better seeing as how they're hidden and they don't help YOU to improve, but, really, again, there's nothing LVI can do about that, short of taking away anon votes and if they do that, even less people are going to vote than they already do. As it is, me? I don't even watch very many Lost vids anymore, let alone vote, unless the vid REALLY pulls me in via title, picture, or summary...and that's not very often. Maybe I'm just rambling...if so, my apologies, but point being: if LVI made it impossible to rate a vid anonymously, I'd just stop voting all together. I know I don't just speak for myself, either.
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thefilmchick · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:15 am Post subject:

But why would you be afraid of it, when that is (to my mind) at least part of the whole reason why the site exists? To me, the whole anonymous vote-without-comment thing defeats the purpose of the site, is unhelpful, and often leaves people at a loss as to how something can be improved.

"Reparations" are dumb, anyway. (Not saying your reason is dumb, but the whole idea of it.) I mean, we're all mature teenagers-and-above, right? (Yeah, I know, we probably aren't all as idealistically mature as that.) We should be able to take criticism, and aware that if we put something out there, it will bring about different reactions.

But criticism is one of the main reasons art is public - to invoke reactions in other people. The same theory can be extended to vidding. If a vidder seems to be on a tear to get back at others via reparations, then staff can, should, and would deal with it.

We should have an option to see the reasons then, if they're entered as anonymous votes. That way, the votes would still be anonymous but more constructive criticism could be gained (and it would be easier to monitor the "THIS SUXX0R! I HAET THIS CHARACTER SO U GET A FAIL!"-style comments, as they'd be public.)

(Edit to clarify. Sorry! Been working on my appellate brief so my writing skills are a bit sketchy at the moment.)
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cylune · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:39 am Post subject:

Most people don't appreciate their vids being taken apart. They consider it a hobby, not an art. It a fun thing to do and should stay fun.
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thefilmchick · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:42 am Post subject:

There is a vast difference between a video being "taken apart" and "Hey, this was good. (Insert good points here.) Some constructive criticism: (Insert criticism here.)"

I aim for technical improvement, and getting scores without explanations doesn't help me improve, after all.

That's why I suggested the anonymous comments being viewable (though not the identity of the vidder, should they wish to keep anonymous) should be optional. If you don't want to see that level of critique, you don't have to, but if you do, you can get it. Otherwise, it seems to me that a vast resource - namely, someone like what mistojen describes: The person that sees your video, sees room for improvement, and offers suggestions, albeit anonymously - is being wasted.
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I saw a werewolf drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's. His hair was perfect.