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Series Finale Critique Thread (Warning: Spoileriffic)

 
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thefilmchick
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 4:03 am    Post subject: Series Finale Critique Thread (Warning: Spoileriffic) Reply with quote

Do not read this thread if you do not want to be spoiled! Finale conversation is unspoiled in this thread, for the two of you who live in a cave (full of names) and have not yet seen the finale.)

Anyone else care to chime in on the not-quite-as-satisfied end of things? Join me; your pod is ripening even now.

I opened this thread so the general discussion thread wouldn't be interrupted or disrupted by the likes of relative Debbie Downers like me.

1) What the hell sort of ending was that? I mean, seriously? Way to completely throw out any notion of science, rationality, or logical thinking about the whole thing. I know, "Everything will be scientifically explained" has been a joke for years now, but... really, that was one hell of a non-scientific lack of an explanation..

2) So what was the zombiefication anyway, other than a cheap 'let's get Sayid out of the way, and make Claire ker-razy for the hell of it' device? (To add to that, selfishly speaking: Why was half the cast offscreen for half of the damn finale, only to show up at the end? Lame. I thought things were building to a final confrontation with badassery, and... yeah, nothing.)

3) I could have spent minutes not looking up at the screen during all those slo-mo 'meaningful looks' sequences.

4) Did anyone else think a lot of the finale (after Jack fought Locke) was, well, boring? It felt like it was missing a third act. There was no real punch to the final third unless you bought into all the religious symbolism. Speaking as someone who's not religious, I thought that was a cheap way of using it. Even if I were religious, I'd have thought it was maudlin and way too soft-pedaled of an ending anyway.

If you want to critique my critiques, feel free, but if you feel the same way I do, this is the thread for you! Don't get me wrong: I didn't hate the finale in the same way I hated certain episodes this season, but it felt only average to me. This show has produced a lot better television than that, and it felt like a cheap way to go.
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Debbie
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no I'm with you Kate. a few things I did like but overal I was it lackluster.


I felt as if I was watching another show. I felt myself thinking "what was the point?"

So we have all these awesome mysteries etc etc and they end it with "oh and then at some point, they all died" well, of course they would have, and of course they wuld have met each other again....what has this got to do with what we've been watching the past 6 years?

They did nothing to prove to me they planned any of this. Infact, it conviced me more that they didn't plan it, and if they did....not well enough. It was rushed and yet so....lifeless at the same time.

Sawyer & Juliet reuinion didn't seem to have any....fireworks...it was lacking something.

and I'm sorry but what about David? so he doesn't exist what? I still find myself so very confused about all of this? what actually got answered here at all?
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Charlies_Innocence
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I loved the finale, so I guess I don't really belong in this thread, lol, but I just wanted to come throw this in here:

Kate, I don't mean offense and I don't mean to cause an argument or anything, but you're hoping for scientific answers and I just don't think Lost was ever about science. I mean, it's always been about science vs. faith, and I think faith has always been the one that wins out. And I know you're not religious, so I don't even mean that necessarily religiously.

I do realize, though, looking back, that a lot of our questions went unanswered. A little disappointing, but overall I think it was awesome.

Just my two cents.
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SuperKC
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was really disappointed in the whole sideshow=purgatory and the idea that they were all moving on to "heaven." Christian Shephard literally shepherded them to the big glowy doorway to heaven. Just. WHAT? As a mostly non-religious person, I was extremely disappointed in that as well. For the rest of the finale, I haven't formed an opinion on that, but those last 15 minutes or so were just WTF?

I know that a lot of people are just happy because their ships got back together in the afterlife. But as someone who was minimally invested in most of those ships, and actively disliked some of them based on principle alone, that isn't something that's gonna make me forgive all of this show's many failings.

Here's a review from gawker, the reviewer was disappointed as well, although I may not agree with everything they said:
http://gawker.com/5545877/

This comment was pretty funny though:
Quote:
What are you all talking about? Everyone knows Lost ended 2 years ago when some got off the island and some stayed on it. If they would have continued for 2 more seasons it would have been an incredible twisted clusterfuck that would make you resent ever having liked the show. Like what if they all got to meet in fucking heaven?! Could you imagine how lame that would have been?!
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Hobbes
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said something along these lines in the main thread, but I wouldn't mind being a little more blunt here..
Edit: I also agree with that review KC posted. There are so many cop-outs this show has done. I guess I kinda just didn't expect anything else. And there are many ways the ending could have been done better.


All said and done, Lost was not an intelligent show. It simply wasn't. They made up everything as they went along, there was no deeper message, there was no grand story. It is rife with painful plotholes, stupid resolutions, and hacky answers - just aimed to further whatever plot point the writers wanted to push that week. Their final "answers" were exactly what the writers promised they weren't (purgatory), rife with unexpected religious themes as an easy out.

This show's plot has been a mess since season 2, when they actually had to start answering their questions. They had no answers, they had no plan, they had no idea what they were doing and anyone who thought they did has been tricked. This is a statement barely up for intelligent debate.

But... for some reason, despite it all, I kinda still loved this show. I think at some point they stopped caring about answering questions, because they knew we could never be satisfied, and instead tried for something else. I think in the end the greatest thing this show has offered lies beyond the shitty plot. The characters, moods and themes stirred up by this thing are why we've been so attached to it, and make it unique among shows. It's kinda a crappy consolation, but it's something. And it's the only way I can explain how I still somehow really enjoyed this season, and the show in general. This silly show has reached for the stars with every episode, trying its best to accomplish something greater than most tv. And even though it has failed, the effort it has made is what endears us to it. There is an amazing show in Lost, hidden between all its crazy. And its that show I choose to remember.
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thefilmchick
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Debbie: Agreed with a lot of it. A lot of the reunions (especially Shayid, though I adore Sayid and don't mind Shannon as much as some) did not have seem to have any punch to them (Charlie and Claire didn't work for me, and I don't mind either of them, either, although I don't particularly love either). They all basically felt lackluster and rushed. Hell, Hurley and Libby in his episode had more gravitas for me than any of the reunions this episode, because at least they got more of a story behind theirs.

Charlies_Innocence wrote:
Kate, I don't mean offense and I don't mean to cause an argument or anything, but you're hoping for scientific answers and I just don't think Lost was ever about science. I mean, it's always been about science vs. faith, and I think faith has always been the one that wins out. And I know you're not religious, so I don't even mean that necessarily religiously.


Elyse: No offense taken! But to me, as you've said, the show was about the relationship between science and faith. Put simply, there was no relationship here. It was all. about. faith. And to me, when the show's about how those two things intertwine (or when the show used to be about that), that's a really unsatisfying line to end upon.

As I told Julia last night, too, it is possible to handle issues of faith well in shows. I like Little Mosque on the Prairie. I liked Dharma and Greg. Many of my favorite characters on TV are religious. I do not like Touched By an Angel-style claptrap with angelic choirs and all the cliches of Religion On Television, which is what this had to me.

Plus, it's nice to see that only the Big Five religions (and Taoism) get 'salvation' in whatever form. Not a word to those with no faith, or those with smaller faiths (Sikhism? Jainism? Anybody?) It was TV-style 'inclusivity,' taking place with Christian trappings in your stereotypical Protestant church with a pantheistic stained glass window thrown in there to say 'Seriously, you guys, it's not all about Christianity!'

I liked the way some religious things (most of Eko's scenes, Charlie's visions, references to Sayid and Islam) were handled in prior seasons (although I wonder where anything but Christianity and (minorly) Islam were in this show), but I did not like the way it was handled in this episode.

I mean, I don't care much at this point anymore (if it were season 3, I'd have been posting angry blog entries left and right!), but it really did offend me, philosophically. I realize that wasn't the show's intent, or at least I would like to believe it wasn't the intent--but it really came off badly to me on that account.

KC: Ditto on the "shepherd" thing. Boring, trite, expected, and vaguely offensive. And agreed as someone who has little interest in a good deal of those ships and actively dislikes a couple of them. It's not a positive point in my book that the ships resolved either.

I knew Shannon was going to find Sayid or vice-versa (the one thing I was spoiled on for this season), but the 30-second scene they got just wasn't worth it. I wondered what had happened to Rose and Bernard, but their resolution wasn't worth it either. And as someone who despises any and all manifestations of the quadrangle, in any possible form, I knew that wasn't going to end a good way either.

Thanks for the review! It was worth a laugh. It's interesting to note that the finale only netted 13 million viewers. So at least it doesn't have the pull to encourage Abrams to end another show in a similar half-assed way.

Warren: I agree with you 100% on your critiques. But instead of answering questions, they opened up more they couldn't solve, and wrote themselves into a corner where they had to end with 'OK, we'll make it religious or something.' The show I discovered a few episodes into s1 and joined the fandom of a few episodes into S2 was a much more tightly plotted, concise show. The kitchen-sink approach doomed it, in my book.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It annoys me when the show keeps throwing a bone to one particular religion. They did have a hindu god on the wall I think in the church though I think that was there to represent that it was a place for everyone.
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eloramoon
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really loved the finale, and I say that as literally the most un-religious a person can possibly be. I wasn't offended by the, as Kate aptly put it in our conversation, "heavy-handed" religious theme: I know the world I live in, and I can at least appreciate the beauty of the idea they put forth, and the fact that they at least tried to incorporate more than just Christianity. I also didn't find the literal use of Christian Shephard to be cheesy, given that greater context.

However, over the course of the past 37 hours, all the questions left unanswered have started popping back into my head. Some of them, I realized, are ultimately unimportant (who built the temple and the statue, and why?) but others (what was up with the cabin and the ash?) were emphasized as being important, but then totally abandoned without resolution.

What I've realized, though, is that this is not a flaw of the finale. These are questions that should have been answered at earlier points of this season and previous seasons. For example, the tedious amount of time spent on the temple and zombification of Sayid could have been put to better use, or at least partially better use, answering some of those questions. Dogen was such an epic disappointment. Here was this mysterious man who probably had all the answers, but all we got were excuses and long brooding looks in response to the questions he was already being asked. Kind of a waste, in my opinion.

So, looking back, yeah it's a little disappointing. But, I think what Warren said in his last paragraph was absolutely perfect:

Quote:
I think at some point they stopped caring about answering questions, because they knew we could never be satisfied, and instead tried for something else.


I couldn't agree more, and I personally think they succeeded when it came to the "something else".

And, frankly, I think all the whingeing out there about pairings is ridiculously hilarious, but also a little sad. Some people are a little too self-entitled when it comes to television, and should either learn how to be the audience, or get out there and be the storyteller.
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littleton_pace
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eloramoon wrote:
What I've realized, though, is that this is not a flaw of the finale. These are questions that should have been answered at earlier points of this season and previous seasons. For example, the tedious amount of time spent on the temple and zombification of Sayid could have been put to better use, or at least partially better use, answering some of those questions. Dogen was such an epic disappointment. Here was this mysterious man who probably had all the answers, but all we got were excuses and long brooding looks in response to the questions he was already being asked. Kind of a waste, in my opinion.


I agree completely here. By season 6, we had so many unanswered questions that we wanted explained; and they didn't really explain any so it was all up to the finale; and of course they couldn't do it all in one episode. I agree so much that about the tedious wastes of time, especially this season, where they could have answered those questions and not made us watch more hiking through the jungle or someone's ramblings about the island/person/whatever being special/important.

I also personally have HATED every single introduced character this season because they didn't really provide anything to the greater story. Dogen, his translator, all the Temple folk. If claire, for example, had a character centric episode where we could have seen what they did to her, what exactly went on and how they did things plus how they recruited Cindy and the kids, etc, it would have added so much more weight to the story as a whole. And Zoe... ugh, need I say more? I was glad to see her gone; but it was like Nikki&Paulo all over again with the new characters. Not wanted. Not needed.

I loved the ending, because Lost has always been about the relationships and the characters. I'm glad we saw them all together; because that's how the show began. Everyone together; working crap out. Ships or no ships; the show was about (gah, now I have to say 'was' instead of 'is' and its making me sad) the characters.

I'm also very very very non religious; and when Lost started going down that path I thought "Oh, boy..." But aside from the Xena-esq light in the middle of the island and the fact that they end up in a church, i didn't get a lot of religion from this episode. I feel faith and religion are completely separate; and everyone can have faith in different things as Lost showed; at least to me.
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Hobbes
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

further proof that Lost's plot was ridiculous:

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291

Quote:
What I've realized, though, is that this is not a flaw of the finale. These are questions that should have been answered at earlier points of this season and previous seasons. For example, the tedious amount of time spent on the temple and zombification of Sayid could have been put to better use, or at least partially better use, answering some of those questions. Dogen was such an epic disappointment. Here was this mysterious man who probably had all the answers, but all we got were excuses and long brooding looks in response to the questions he was already being asked. Kind of a waste, in my opinion.

So true.

If you look back at everything, like 90% of the plot of Lost was irrelevant to the final result. Actually, maybe more than that. I bet I'll rewatch it one of these days and say "What the hell? WHY DID THAT HAPPEN?" almost every episode.
By all logic, I should be really pissed at this show. Yet, for some reason, I'm kinda not? It's strange. I can only say there must be some other quality that made up for all this crap. But what is it? Kinda hard to put my finger on it. The finale was useless as far as giving closure to the mysteries of Lost. Utterly useless. But it gave closure to the characters. I guess maybe its just that through all those hours of watching and obsessing over this show, we've got so attached that we care so much about the characters and everything that it overpowered the rest? I dunno.
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Brooke
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate the fact that Ben was redeemed. Great character and actor but Ben should have been a whisper on that island along with Michael.

I never got why he was redeemed at all. He didn't deserve it, he was an opportunist who did things that suited him.

MIB promised him the island so he went bat shit and was all like "LETS KILL! KILL WHO!?" And then when he realized MIB was just yanking his chain because Ben was dumb enough to believe him he's all like "I am on Jacks' side now." But I believe strongly that if the island was still going to be given to Ben, Ben wouldn't be on Jack's side.

Ben did AWFUL things and the writers always found a way for us to like him, and then he'd do something equally awful and it's just a runaround thing with him.

I never viewed Ben as a good.

Because a man pays army men to go on an island an capture you and they kill your kid doesn't give you the right to want to go kill their kid. I hated "He doesn't get to save his daughter." Because if memory serves me correct Ben was ABLE to save her and refused.

Great character, but I hate that he was given so many chances and then he'd just turn around and be awful all over again.



Another reason Ben got on my nerves was that he treated the Losties like shit (Excuse my language). But he did. When he really shouldn't have he just had these jealous issues where if someone was more special then he was he wanted them dead. IE, John Locke. John Locke may forgive him but I still can't.

Done rant.
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben is stuck in limbo and didn't end up in the church which I thought was great. I also like to think he turned it around somehwhat in his remaining years as number 2 under Hugo.

I have felt like you in the past that Ben deserved to die but I just really love the character so much that I can let it fly. It's not like he got a pass into heaven which I really appreciated. Now he can take care of Danielle and Alex which is a really fitting way for him to go.
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eloramoon
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my take on the Ben thing:

Obviously at some point in his childhood, Jacob thought Ben might be a candidate, hence Richard allowing him to eventually join the Others. Ben was led to believe that he was special and that it was his job to protect the island, Jacob, and his people. Somewhere along the way, the MIB began to give Richard (Jacob's number two) orders pretending to be Jacob. Whether Jacob didn't object because he couldnt or didn't know, or because he simply chose not to--we'll never know. But, I'm pretty sure that orders such as "the purge" must have come from MIB, as well as the orders to gather the people on Jacob's list. But any way you slice it, Ben thought he was doing what he had to do to protect the island, Jacob, and his people. He saw the consequences of his actions as being sacrifices to "the greater good". Even when he let Alex die, he was choosing the island over his daughter.

I'm not saying that any of this means that Ben was actually good--the whole point of having free will is that he could have very easily chosen not to do the bad things, and he chose not to even question the orders he was given. There was also, obviously, some level of him wanting to protect his own position, as well. But, all of this together, I think, shows that Ben wasn't really bad in the same way that others were bad. He was manipulated and used and led to believe the bad things he was doing were all for a greater purpose. So, for that I think, redemption for him was a little easier to come by.
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Charlies_Innocence
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of wonder if Ben was ever really on MIB's side... Cuz he was with him, I guess, in that one episode (What They Died For?) but the whole time he still had the walkie-talkie to communicate with Miles and Richard... I dunno. Ben's just such a convoluted character, I never know what his motives are. But I love him.
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm almost certain Ben was "pulling a Snape" there in What They Died For, trying to gain MIB's trust by killing Widmore, mixed in with a little personal revenge, trying to stop him from telling MIB that secret, and self-preservation since if he didn't do what MIB wanted he'd be killed too. So I wouldn't count that for or against Ben's alignment.
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